I wondered what 3 phase was so I Googled it. It said 3 phase is popular in Europe for residential. Is it the standard in Europe? Is there essentially 3 - 110v wires? Is it regular 110 or does it have to be produced a certain way? I was confused about the 120 degrees. Why no neutral? How does the electricity get back to the panel?
JLawrence08648
Two hot wires complete the circuit. There is potential between any two hots same as 240 volts across the two hots in North America.
3 phase in Europe always have zero, or neutral. Voltage between hot and zero 220 and between 2 different phase 380 V
3 phase in north America supplied to commercial units only and can be 400, 480 or 600V, depends from distribution company, as I know. If you need to run big electric motors - 3 phase is preferable.
Even if you find 1 phase big electric motor - it will be advertised for farms without 3 phase supply.
3 phase in north America supplied to commercial units only and can be 400, 480 or 600V, depends from distribution company, as I know. If you need to run big electric motors - 3 phase is preferable.
Even if you find 1 phase big electric motor - it will be advertised for farms without 3 phase supply.
208 volts is voltage between 2 phase of 120V
But 120V is "fake" voltage and was made long time ago for compatibility with old equipment, real voltage is 240V.
Probably you could get 208 volts, but for what? 120V(1 phase) not effective and not in use by stove, dryer and A/C
Wait... 3 wire well pump may use this voltage, but it comes from control box and I dont know how 3 wire pump works.
600V 3 phase can be found in most car shops in Toronto, cause air compressors popular for this voltage. You can actually replace case and effect in this sentence.
But 120V is "fake" voltage and was made long time ago for compatibility with old equipment, real voltage is 240V.
Probably you could get 208 volts, but for what? 120V(1 phase) not effective and not in use by stove, dryer and A/C
Wait... 3 wire well pump may use this voltage, but it comes from control box and I dont know how 3 wire pump works.
600V 3 phase can be found in most car shops in Toronto, cause air compressors popular for this voltage. You can actually replace case and effect in this sentence.
Two hundred eight volts is found only in 3 phase systems with a neutral to provide 120 volts (hot to neutral). When the phase to phase (hot to hot) voltage is actually about 240 and a neutral provides hot to neutral voltage of about 120 for some (two) of the phases then you get 208 volts from the third phase to neutral and that 208 volts is not intended to be used for anything.
They do not make light bulbs specifically for 208 volts. You wire up the light fixtures to use 120 volts. On 208 volts you use 220 to 240 volt incandescent bulbs (or hit or miss with 220 tio 240 volt LED or other kinds of bulbs) only if you absolutely have to.
On 120/208 volt (wye; symmetric neutral) 3 phase systems, the 208 volts phase to phase (any two hots) is used "like" it was 240 volts. There are still a few exceptions where 240 volt appliances or devices do not work well, which cases are hard to predict.
When a home is supplied with 120/208 volt 3 phase (often with just two of the three hot lines) the wire gauge rules are the same as for 120/240 volts, including if all 3 phases were supplied and a 3 phase multiwire branch circuit (all 3 hots and ground and shared neutral) were strung in the wall.
They do not make light bulbs specifically for 208 volts. You wire up the light fixtures to use 120 volts. On 208 volts you use 220 to 240 volt incandescent bulbs (or hit or miss with 220 tio 240 volt LED or other kinds of bulbs) only if you absolutely have to.
On 120/208 volt (wye; symmetric neutral) 3 phase systems, the 208 volts phase to phase (any two hots) is used "like" it was 240 volts. There are still a few exceptions where 240 volt appliances or devices do not work well, which cases are hard to predict.
When a home is supplied with 120/208 volt 3 phase (often with just two of the three hot lines) the wire gauge rules are the same as for 120/240 volts, including if all 3 phases were supplied and a 3 phase multiwire branch circuit (all 3 hots and ground and shared neutral) were strung in the wall.
In a lot of commerical buildings there's both 120/208 step downs (mostly to provide 120V receptacles for random stuff), and 277/480 (commercial fluorescent and HID fixtures are often 277).
I've come across some 208 stuff in residences (often multifamily buildings, but a few times on places like farms). Your stove will run on 208 but with much less btus than if you had 230.
I've come across some 208 stuff in residences (often multifamily buildings, but a few times on places like farms). Your stove will run on 208 but with much less btus than if you had 230.
I hope you Googled a lot.
You need to understand "WYE" vs "DELTA" wiring.
Note that "WYE" wiring does establish a neutral in the center of the triangle.
DELTA does not establish or deliver a neutral.
Other cute variants are "WILD LEG DELTA" and "CORNER GROUNDED DELTA" but they are unique to North America.
Europe doesn't use 110V for anything at all. * (of course there's an asterisk!)
Europe uses 3-phase "WYE" (so yes, neutral). In Europe if you measure between the plug holes, you get 230V. Really. It is 1 phase and neutral.
If you really, really, really want all 3 phases, or are German, you can get all 3 phases + neutral. Then you have 3 phases of 230V each, or you have 3 "sides" of 400V each, or you can run 3-phase tools on 400V "delta" or "wye". (if you have wye, you can run tools made for delta).
By the way if you ever shop for a tankless water heater, and you notice how most of them use three 240V circuits, that is why. They are sold in Europe also, for use on 230V 3-phase.
The European system of 230V/400V "WYE" is adequate for all residential, commercial and light industrial use. As such, they don't have all the weird and varied systems we have in North America.
Understanding 3-phase is helped by understanding geometry.
As Jim Port says, it helps to understand US 120/240V "split-phase".
As usual, seharper (at Post # 24) has posted an incisive comment and an appropriate reference in this "discussion".
The original post was
"I wondered what 3 phase was so I Googled it. It said 3 phase is popular in Europe for residential. Is it the standard in Europe? Is there essentially 3 - 110v wires? Is it regular 110 or does it have to be produced a certain way? I was confused about the 120 degrees. Why no neutral? How does the electricity get back to the panel?"
Obviously, the OP (JLawrence0864) may not have Googled enough.
I am sure that all of us who "understand" electrical "transmission practices" are well versed in angular dimensions, including the way in which stereo sound was encoded into the three dimensional travel of a needle point in a vinyl recording and the "resolution of vectors" required by the "hardware" to resolve the two separate signals from this.
(However, that is a digression.)
The "benefits" of AC electrical distribution was something that was understood by Tesla but may not have been understood by Edison - although that may have been his economic/patent rights prejudice coming to the fore.
However, Edison's prejudice that his 100 V DC system was "safer" led to the North American 240/120 V "Split Phase" system..
That which is not usually posted in these discussions is that the Edison Company's DC distribution system was with three conductors, a 100 V DC Positive conductor, a 100 V DC Negative conductor, all referenced to the Grounded (Neutral) conductor - which may or may not have been "supplied". Hence, the Edison Company's DC supplied devices could operate on 200 V (DC).
In North America, Edison's (safe ?) 100 V has been "upgraded" over the years to 110 V, 115 V and (now) 120 V - largely to equate with the (nominal) 230 - 240 V supplies of Europe and most of the remainder of the world, where European practice is generally followed.
Of course, with sinusoidal AC, the "peak" voltage at 100 V AC is 141 V and at 120 V it is 170 V
At 230 V AC it is 325 V.
With regard to the "safety" of any "low voltage", it is "interesting" that if you look-up the words "US Navy", "sailor", "death", "9 V battery" you will find articles such these.
darwinawards.com
However, that supposed "US Navy safety publication" has not been referenced in any of the discussions which I have been able to locate.
While the event concerned (of killing oneself with a 9 V battery) is possible, I have not been able to locate any authoritative reference for it.
(Can anyone help with this "research"?)
The original post was
"I wondered what 3 phase was so I Googled it. It said 3 phase is popular in Europe for residential. Is it the standard in Europe? Is there essentially 3 - 110v wires? Is it regular 110 or does it have to be produced a certain way? I was confused about the 120 degrees. Why no neutral? How does the electricity get back to the panel?"
Obviously, the OP (JLawrence0864) may not have Googled enough.
I am sure that all of us who "understand" electrical "transmission practices" are well versed in angular dimensions, including the way in which stereo sound was encoded into the three dimensional travel of a needle point in a vinyl recording and the "resolution of vectors" required by the "hardware" to resolve the two separate signals from this.
(However, that is a digression.)
The "benefits" of AC electrical distribution was something that was understood by Tesla but may not have been understood by Edison - although that may have been his economic/patent rights prejudice coming to the fore.
However, Edison's prejudice that his 100 V DC system was "safer" led to the North American 240/120 V "Split Phase" system..
That which is not usually posted in these discussions is that the Edison Company's DC distribution system was with three conductors, a 100 V DC Positive conductor, a 100 V DC Negative conductor, all referenced to the Grounded (Neutral) conductor - which may or may not have been "supplied". Hence, the Edison Company's DC supplied devices could operate on 200 V (DC).
In North America, Edison's (safe ?) 100 V has been "upgraded" over the years to 110 V, 115 V and (now) 120 V - largely to equate with the (nominal) 230 - 240 V supplies of Europe and most of the remainder of the world, where European practice is generally followed.
Of course, with sinusoidal AC, the "peak" voltage at 100 V AC is 141 V and at 120 V it is 170 V
At 230 V AC it is 325 V.
With regard to the "safety" of any "low voltage", it is "interesting" that if you look-up the words "US Navy", "sailor", "death", "9 V battery" you will find articles such these.
1999 Darwin Award: Resistance is Futile
Darwin Award: Resistance is Futile: A US Navy safety publication describes injuries incurred while doing don't's. One page described the fate of a sailor playing with a multimeter in an unauthorized manner. He was curious about the resistance level
darwinawards.com
Man Killed by 9 volt battery
(1999) A US Navy safety publication describes injuries incurred while doing don't's. One page described the fate of a sailor playing with a multimeter in an unauthorized manner. He was curious about the resistance level of the human body. He had a Simpson 260 multimeter, a small unit powered by a...
www.neowin.net
However, that supposed "US Navy safety publication" has not been referenced in any of the discussions which I have been able to locate.
While the event concerned (of killing oneself with a 9 V battery) is possible, I have not been able to locate any authoritative reference for it.
(Can anyone help with this "research"?)
I beg to differ. In any 3 phase system, if two hots are used to feed a motor or other device and a third supply conductor as a neutral (whether or not present) is not incorporated into the circuitry, then the power received by the device is also theoretically a pure (think: balanced) sine wave although at the voltage (e.g. 208) thought of as "odd" by someone just getting acquanted with 3 phase power. (When the AC peak is reached on one leg while the valley has not yet been reached on the other leg due to the 120 degree phasing relationship, the result is still a sine wave. The "other" leg will eventally reach valleys and peaks of the same magnitude as those reached by the first leg.)
Given an ancient Edison direct current power station providing plus 100, minus 100, and neutral (zero referenced), I find it hard to believe that equipment and especially light bulbs and motors were designed back then (1900) to allow indiscriminate use on either 100 volts (hot to neutral) or 200 volts (hot to hot). The design of devices including refrigerators would be somewhat complicated and not worth the expense.
Instead it would be much more reasonable to provide each customer (each home) with hot and neutral at 100 volts as the service. The practice of supplying neutral and one hot persisted proliferously well into the alternating current era in the U.S., with what is still referred to and in some cities still available as two wire 120 volt service.
Given an ancient Edison direct current power station providing plus 100, minus 100, and neutral (zero referenced), I find it hard to believe that equipment and especially light bulbs and motors were designed back then (1900) to allow indiscriminate use on either 100 volts (hot to neutral) or 200 volts (hot to hot). The design of devices including refrigerators would be somewhat complicated and not worth the expense.
Instead it would be much more reasonable to provide each customer (each home) with hot and neutral at 100 volts as the service. The practice of supplying neutral and one hot persisted proliferously well into the alternating current era in the U.S., with what is still referred to and in some cities still available as two wire 120 volt service.
You can't plot a voltage from a single leg wire. Voltage is always a differential between two points. Again, you can only have a phase difference when you have two different wave forms, i.e., two different legs measured to neutral or two single phases taken from differing pairs of the three phase leg.
Again, there's no way to have a single phase that's out of phase, because it has to be relative to another signal.
Your comment about things being flat makes no sense whatsoever either.
Your entire argument defies the basic rules of electrical circuits.
Again, there's no way to have a single phase that's out of phase, because it has to be relative to another signal.
Your comment about things being flat makes no sense whatsoever either.
Your entire argument defies the basic rules of electrical circuits.
No, you've not plotted it right. The difference between two lines. let's say the red and blue, goes up and down as a regular sine wave. When they are furthest apart they are at the maximum amplitude, when they cross they are at the midpoint of the waveform and then they diverge again in the form of a perfect sine wave.
Each leg doesn't have a "voltage of its own." A voltage again, and this is basic electricity, is a DIFFERENTIAL. The plot you show has meaning only because it is referenced again a midpoint (neutral) voltage. But if you actually do the math and plot the difference between two of the lines on the chart, you'll find you have a normal looking sine wave, just at a different amplitude. They won't add up to to double the line-to-netual voltage because they're out of phase, but the resulting wave form is a sign wave square root of three times as big as the others.
Each leg doesn't have a "voltage of its own." A voltage again, and this is basic electricity, is a DIFFERENTIAL. The plot you show has meaning only because it is referenced again a midpoint (neutral) voltage. But if you actually do the math and plot the difference between two of the lines on the chart, you'll find you have a normal looking sine wave, just at a different amplitude. They won't add up to to double the line-to-netual voltage because they're out of phase, but the resulting wave form is a sign wave square root of three times as big as the others.
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