[Racinmason]

The company that installed the metal zero clearance fireplace is the company that installs the metal caps. They install everything associated with that fireplace except the chimney structure itself, but they can do that also.

 

[jplee3]

The company that installed the metal zero clearance fireplace is the company that installs the metal caps. They install everything associated with that fireplace except the chimney structure itself, but they can do that also.

Ugh.... I should have just had these guys fix the flashing around the chimney and had a fireplace company do the cap instead :T

 

[gthomson]

I'm not sure I'm using the right terminology here...
But that cap on top of the chimney chase cover could also cause some problems - that pyramid shaped cap on top of the chase cover.
If the output of the chimney flu is lower than that, it could push the heat output down, which can then warp the chimney chase cover, in ways that can cause problems, especially if the chase cover is fastened on with nails/screws on the top, instead of the sides.

 

[jplee3]

I borrowed my friend's drone and flew it up there to take video and pictures of the work. They definitely bolted the shroud/caps from the top (and caulked around the bolts):

Here is an album with videos and pictures:

Toluca Roof & Chimney (Pacific Crest)

23 new items · Album by Jeremy Lee

photos.app.goo.gl

I emailed the contractor/owner again and reiterated my concerns regarding the damage to the covers/shrouds as well as expressed additional concern that they were bolted and caulked to the top rather than the sides (and how there's no kickout to direct water away from the chimney).

In the scope of work, he also talked about repairing the flashing around the chimney, which I had gone over with him but it seems his guys missed it...

This is from a roofing report we had done prior to any work and after the leaks were discovered:

Photos/stills from today:

I told the lead guy about this and showed him the roof report pic but I'm pretty sure he just brushed it off (even though he said he would check). Not sure if it's miscommunication/misunderstanding, laziness, incompetence, or a combination of all of it but this is pretty irritating. Looks like they probably popped a couple tiles as well while they were up there (not sure if the roofer is going to charge me to replace those too or what - I told him I have spares and they actually may have used some to replace but there is at least one I spotted that looks to be broken near this chimney)

 

[jplee3]

I'm not sure I'm using the right terminology here...
But that cap on top of the chimney chase cover could also cause some problems - that pyramid shaped cap on top of the chase cover.
If the output of the chimney flu is lower than that, it could push the heat output down, which can then warp the chimney chase cover, in ways that can cause problems, especially if the chase cover is fastened on with nails/screws on the top, instead of the sides.

So that cap is like a secondary cap and I think there's a flue with another top cap under it? They had taken the pieces off originally and set them on the side and I recall seeing one with a round cap - I'm guessing those are under the pyramids but I'm not 100% certain either.

There is a neighbor uphill of us who had the entire shroud replaced with a big pyramid:

I'm wondering if that would have been a better thing from them to install - IIRC, I pointed at it and showed them when first getting the quote but it seems like they just wanted to copy what was originally there (which probably was a bad idea considering this is a 1980 build and probably many things weren't up to code, including that shroud)

 

[gthomson]

This was the setup I had, and inspector said it would cause me problems when I bought the house in 2005, and it did.
It was a 1984 build.
This first pic was after there were stains on the inside ceiling from water leaks 10+ years after being here.

The chase cover fasteners were on the top of the cover, with silicone/caulk around them.

The inspector when I bought the house said that pyramid style, with the flue lower than it, would hold in heat, and warp the chase cover. The chase cover did end up warped. And then the roofer said the water leak was because of that warpage - it popped up the fasteners. And then during a heavy rain, the rain was able to build up, and go down those holes.

Secondary problem for me was termites.

The second pic below shows the parts after I brought them down.
The flue coming up from below had a diameter in between that one going through the chase cover, and the one going that is up-side-down going to the round cap that was lower than the pyramid box.

And if I understand right, that's what gave the termites the route into that wet wood.

Seemed like a perfect storm... for the termites.

I'm no expert on this.
But I believe...

• using fasteners on the top of the chase cover - bad - put fasteners on the sides
• pyramid shroud - bad if the exhaust is lower than the top of that shroud
• flue diameter - lower needs to equal upper - otherwise it gives termites a way into that internal structure

Like I said, I'm no expert on this, but that's what I've learned so far...

 

[jplee3]

This was the setup I had, and inspector said it would cause me problems when I bought the house in 2005, and it did.
It was a 1984 build.
This first pic was after there were stains on the inside ceiling from water leaks 10+ years after being here.

The chase cover fasteners were on the top of the cover, with silicone/caulk around them.

The inspector when I bought the house said that pyramid style, with the flue lower than it, would hold in heat, and warp the chase cover. The chase cover did end up warped. And then the roofer said the water leak was because of that warpage - it popped up the fasteners. And then during a heavy rain, the rain was able to build up, and go down those holes.

Secondary problem for me was termites.

The second pic below shows the parts after I brought them down.
The flue coming up from below had a diameter in between that one going through the chase cover, and the one going that is up-side-down going to the round cap that was lower than the pyramid box.

And if I understand right, that's what gave the termites the route into that wet wood.

Seemed like a perfect storm... for the termites.

I'm no expert on this.
But I believe...

• using fasteners on the top of the chase cover - bad - put fasteners on the sides
• pyramid shroud - bad if the exhaust is lower than the top of that shroud
• flue diameter - lower needs to equal upper - otherwise it gives termites a way into that internal structure

Like I said, I'm no expert on this, but that's what I've learned so far...

View attachment 755155


View attachment 755156

Ughhh... I'm still waiting to hear from the roofer. I emailed the owner/contractor twice a few days ago and texted his foreman today (usually he texts back quickly). crickets
This is what the new ones look like from the top side (not sure it makes much of a difference):

I would have thought the roofers would realize this is a bad design and that they should have built something that would be known to hold up longer term. Instead, they go and copy an inherently bad design... And now they're silent on the matter apparently.

 

[jplee3]

So they came back out today to try to "fix" it (they also replaced flashing around the rear chimney). I returned the drone back to my friend and should have just held onto it :T

Anyway, whatever they did it doesn't look to have improved the overall look very much. If anything, it's a very slight improvement.

Not sure what to counter with if/when they come back out and demand payment. Functionally, these things seem to be working (so far at least) as we had a recent rain dump here in SoCal and I didn't see any water leaking in where it was before. But they sure look ugly

Should I ask for a concession?

 

[Racinmason]

Would you accept a dent on a car? A scratch on your new cabinets? Get a refund.

 

[jplee3]

Would you accept a dent on a car? A scratch on your new cabinets? Get a refund.

What's considered "fair" as far as stuff like this is concerned? Do you pay for the labor but not the materials? Or do you basically demand new caps or no payment at all (at least for that portion of the job)?

Based on scope of work, he priced the second chimney cap replacement out at $650. I'm assuming the first one would be the same but he didn't itemize the pricing in the scope of the work.

 

[Racinmason]

If you can live with the dents… a 40% refund. What would you prefer to do? Have it done again or get a refund? Tell the guy you’re not happy and ask him what he thinks is fair. He might surprise you.

 

[jplee3]

Oh boy, so the roofer is not happy with me... I sent him another follow-up email (because he has been unresponsive) and he finally fired back:


"We will need to meet with you with all your questions and issues and predictions of how the caps will fail.
The roof itself is water tight and we have gone over and above the contract visually the caps have dents which is clearly just visual and the cap is not compromised
If it the look your concerned about we will need to work on it
I want to meet and go over your pics and how the chimney was reflashed, a drone or naked cannot see though roof tiles to see the flashing installed and I don’t appreciate you are thinking thinking nothing was fine so we will go over your questions in person
Clearly the roof is currently water tight
When is a good time and day to meet next week?"

In addition to the dents, I had raised other questions about the chimney flashing (at the base of the chimney where it meets the roof) being re-done and visually not being able to tell. I was more just looking for clarification around what was done because it wasn't clear to me. But I guess it came off as me implying that they didn't do anything. Obviously, he's keying into the water proofness part of it more than anything. I am going to screenshot gthomson's reply #26 with the picture of the pyramid cover and reply back to him with that as what I was referencing as far as these types of caps failing down the line.

Honestly, I don't know what he's going to do about the chimney caps being dented at this point - he seems to be trying to brush it off. I don't know what to tell him in person but plan to use the "so if you were selling me a new car with a dent, I guess you think that I'd be ok with that too?"

 

[Racinmason]

Show him a photo of a cap without dents, then show him a photo of yours, ask him which one would he like to have on his chimney? Don’t say anything after he sees the photos, the first guy that talks loses.

You’re either going to have to find another contractor or live with it, but he should pay for it.

 

[jplee3]

Show him a photo of a cap without dents, then show him a photo of yours, ask him which one would he like to have on his chimney? Don’t say anything after he sees the photos, the first guy that talks loses.

You’re either going to have to find another contractor or live with it, but he should pay for it.

I ended up calling two local chimney sweep companies who also have experience doing cap & shroud repairs and replacements. Sent the pics and drone footage (before and after). Initially one guy came back saying everything looks fine but not sure how close he looked at the pics lol. I pointed out the dents and the style of cap that was reinstalled and the lady answering the phone said she'll inquire again with the guy. I guess feedback between these two companies will determine how hard I really want to press in terms of a replacement. I can probably live with the dents and if that's the case, will ask him to discount the price... of course, he may argue with me and tell me he already "discounted" me on price blah blah blah.

 

[gthomson]

I'm no expert on the chimney stuff, but it did cause me problems, and multiple people said the same things on my setup.

When I bought the place in 2005, the inspector was a pretty thorough guy, and said that pyramid style cap would cause problems because the flue exit was lower than the top of tha cap. Said it would hold in heat and warp the chase cover. And it did.

About 2017, had my roof replaced. Lots of rain about 2-3 years later and was having stains on the ceiling around the fireplace area. So I contacted the roofer, and they came out to check.
They said the chase cover was warped, which popped up the fasteners that were on the top of the chase cover.
And that let the water into those openings once the water level got high enough there.

Whether, or not, you have recourse against them I don't know.
They are probably right that it is waterproof now.
If you're going for the longer term - it might have problems in 10-20 years that might not happen if done better now?

If that cosmetic problem with the cover was street-facing in a way that looked bad, I'd have a problem with it.
If it's in a place where nobody sees, like the back of the fridg, no worries for me.

If you have an HOA, they may also have some regs on how things are done?

And I'm just a DIYer, so don't take this as pro advice...
I would get the chase cover re-done, with fasteners on the sides, not the top.
And a cap that lets the heat escape up and out, if the HOA allows that.

The people at Stainless Steel Chimney Liners, Caps, Covers & More helped me get what I needed to do things in a more DIY way.
I have no affiliation with them, and get no $$$'s from them in any say.
But they were helpful for me.

 

[jplee3]

I'm no expert on the chimney stuff, but it did cause me problems, and multiple people said the same things on my setup.

When I bought the place in 2005, the inspector was a pretty thorough guy, and said that pyramid style cap would cause problems because the flue exit was lower than the top of tha cap. Said it would hold in heat and warp the chase cover. And it did.

About 2017, had my roof replaced. Lots of rain about 2-3 years later and was having stains on the ceiling around the fireplace area. So I contacted the roofer, and they came out to check.
They said the chase cover was warped, which popped up the fasteners that were on the top of the chase cover.
And that let the water into those openings once the water level got high enough there.

Whether, or not, you have recourse against them I don't know.
They are probably right that it is waterproof now.
If you're going for the longer term - it might have problems in 10-20 years that might not happen if done better now?

If that cosmetic problem with the cover was street-facing in a way that looked bad, I'd have a problem with it.
If it's in a place where nobody sees, like the back of the fridg, no worries for me.

If you have an HOA, they may also have some regs on how things are done?

And I'm just a DIYer, so don't take this as pro advice...
I would get the chase cover re-done, with fasteners on the sides, not the top.
And a cap that lets the heat escape up and out, if the HOA allows that.

The people at Stainless Steel Chimney Liners, Caps, Covers & More helped me get what I needed to do things in a more DIY way.
I have no affiliation with them, and get no $$$'s from them in any say.
But they were helpful for me.

Thanks for the feedback. I was inquiring about this very thing with a guy at a chimney sweep company who has replaced many chimney caps. He looked at the before and after pics I sent him and said he doesn't see any issues with the installation, outside of the obvious dents which he relayed are cosmetic. He said with the type of chimney I have, it would be difficult to secure it from the side unless there's a 2x4 there (I'm not sure whether there is or not) but he said the place he gets his covers manufactured from adds a little foot so that it can be secured from the sides (I don't know exactly what he was describing). He offered to come out to get an in-person and close-up look at the chaise covers and shrouds to see if he notices any issues with the install. I brought up all that you had mentioned about these types of covers warping due to heat and he was saying he hasn't seen that in his experience - of course, he said that in theory he could see this happening particularly if a thinner sheet metal is used (which is exactly the concern here). I sent the pics to another local chimney sweep company who has experience with cap repairs & replacements as well and am waiting for their feedback... just to the clarify but the cap is the top piece that is sitting on/secured to the shroud/cover (this is the larger area piece that sits over the frame of the chimney itself)? If that's the case, then yes, I'm pretty sure the flue is popping up above the shroud/cover but is 'enclosed' within the pyramid - the pyramid does appear to have some venting though:

I think you're right though and that this is probably going to buy us 10-20 years of time before something bad happens (sure, it's watertight...NOW. And the leak was remediated NOW. But even he told me their warranty is only a year so it kind of goes back to the point that his 'solution' may very well not be meant to last long at all - I don't want to have to pay someone to go up there every 5 years and break more tiles just to re-caulk around a few bolts... shrug).

At this point though, I think we may just live with it and cross our fingers (still asking for the discount from the roofer - I doubt he's going to agree to fully replace it, let alone manufacture a completely different design of chimney cap but he may be willing to discount the work due to their "self-inflicted damages"). On that note, the roofer is probably going to be out in another couple weeks to talk to me in person about the work that was done. Hopefully that'll give him some time to cool down (after his seemingly ticked-off response) and be more reasonable when he comes out and sees how ugly the street-facing chimney is with the dents his guys put in the side :T I seriously doubt he or his foreman have been out to check - the irony is that they are in the same city as I am so there's really no excuse for him just to drive by and look (not needing for me to come out to "talk with him in person"). The dent should be more than enough to speak for itself IMO...

Here they are again, in all their glory (these were taken after his guy came back out to attempt to 'fix' the dents...smh. Might as well send some monkeys up there to finish the job):

This is the chimney visible from the street. Fortunately, we are at the end of the cul-de-sac so it's not like we have a ton of passing traffic but it's definitely an eyesore for my wife and I because we know it's there. For others it may not be as noticeable. You can definitely see it from our driveway and front walkway. Likely the sidewalk and street too but I haven't gone out there to try to figure out all the possible angles at which you can see it lol.

This is the backside which they kind of screwed up on both sides but since it's the backyard it's not as noticeable:

The quality of work kind of reminds me of how I thought I'd be able to do knock-down texturing on drywall - seems easy in theory: splatter some compound on the wall, wait for it to dry, then lightly go over it with a blade... it's THAT easy! Right, it's definitely "easy" - making it it look right is NOT EASY. My result after trying several times was that it looked like a raised bump on the drywall with splotches that do not blend with the surrounding texture. At some point, I just gave up and called it quits (this is probably what was running to the lead guys' mind who was trying to make the dents look less dented lol - another telltale sign of guys not proud of their work is when they leave the scene without ringing the doorbell or knocking and letting you know they're all done - these guys just took off the past couple times...smh)

Another yellow-flag with all this is that I asked that same lead guy to make sure he was taking pictures of everything because I wanted to see it. Maybe that's a bit much to ask for from a skilled laborer but most of the skilled laborers who I've had up on my roof are more than willing to snap some photos and send them to me. That's exactly what the stucco guy did. If the guy were confident in his work and ability, he would have no problem snapping some pics and sending them to me. I'm sure he's embarrassed deep down inside.

 

[jplee3]

I'm no expert on the chimney stuff, but it did cause me problems, and multiple people said the same things on my setup.

When I bought the place in 2005, the inspector was a pretty thorough guy, and said that pyramid style cap would cause problems because the flue exit was lower than the top of tha cap. Said it would hold in heat and warp the chase cover. And it did.

About 2017, had my roof replaced. Lots of rain about 2-3 years later and was having stains on the ceiling around the fireplace area. So I contacted the roofer, and they came out to check.
They said the chase cover was warped, which popped up the fasteners that were on the top of the chase cover.
And that let the water into those openings once the water level got high enough there.

Whether, or not, you have recourse against them I don't know.
They are probably right that it is waterproof now.
If you're going for the longer term - it might have problems in 10-20 years that might not happen if done better now?

If that cosmetic problem with the cover was street-facing in a way that looked bad, I'd have a problem with it.
If it's in a place where nobody sees, like the back of the fridg, no worries for me.

If you have an HOA, they may also have some regs on how things are done?

And I'm just a DIYer, so don't take this as pro advice...
I would get the chase cover re-done, with fasteners on the sides, not the top.
And a cap that lets the heat escape up and out, if the HOA allows that.

The people at Stainless Steel Chimney Liners, Caps, Covers & More helped me get what I needed to do things in a more DIY way.
I have no affiliation with them, and get no $$$'s from them in any say.
But they were helpful for me.

Quick update but the chimney guy just came by and went up to look at both chimneys. He said he doesn't have any concerns with them (either the way they were installed or the pyramid style/type). He said they look installed properly according to his experience (and he has done many chimneys in our area). Now, he said if we were burning tons of wood, it might be a different story. As far as the pyramids trapping heat and causing the cover to warp, that's not something he said he's ever seen happen before - I'm guessing either the sheet metal was super thin on chimneys where it did happen and/or the fireplace was used frequently.

As far as the denting, he is suspecting that likely the guys who installed these screwed/bolted them down too much which he said will case the side flanges to warp like that.

At this point, I guess I feel a bit more reassured from someone who specializes in chimney cap/shroud repair and replacement, that he thinks the installation was done properly (well, perhaps not carefully with the denting). The only concern he express is the quality of sheet metal used. Based on what he saw, he thinks we'll probably get around 10 years of life out of these before the sheet metal starts to wear or the caulk starts to fail. I'm not sure happy to hear that but at this point I feel it is what it is... he said the original caps would have been expected to last 20+ years or so. The home was built in 1980 so I guess I don't feel too bad that I decided to replace both but in hindsight, I should have only replaced the rear chimney with the bad dents (from the tree fall) and leak, and not worried about having them replace this other one on the side of the house.
That said, I may just try to work with our roofer to discount the chimney specific work based on the visible damage.

I am still waiting to hear back from a different chimney sweep company that I reached out to and sent pics too so will see what they have to say about all of this.
(UPDATE: second company got back to me - they also don't see anything wrong with the install or chimney type. Only thing they mentioned, which is the same as the first guy, is that they likely used a thinner gauge sheet metal which isn't going to last as long)


BTW gthomson, where are you located? And are you using your fireplace pretty frequently?

 

[gthomson]

BTW gthomson, where are you located? And are you using your fireplace pretty frequently?

I'm in SoCal. I don't use the fireplace too much, but I think the previous owners did - they pushed that as something they loved about the place - small place, cozy, and they loved having the fireplace available.
It's a gas powered fireplace here.
Another piece that may play a part in it is those corner to corner ridges on the chase cover. I don't know enough to talk intelligently about that, but I think those may help prevent warpage and sagging.

I did see another house about 12 houses down the street also have 3/4s of their chimney structure replaced about 2 or 3 years ago. I'm assuming they had termites get into it as well. But I think that's a secondary thing where the way the bottom to top flu left openings in ways for that to happen, so that's different.

Learned more than I ever wanted to know about how chimneys work on that problem/fix