Hi Everyone,

I am in the process of re-doing my kitchen and one of the projects that I am doing is replacing the exisiting sliding glass door. The old door is leaking and there is some damage to the subfloor. My question is on the exterior of the home the vinyl siding goes right up until the J-channel and the J-channel is against the old sliding glass window. The new replacment window that I bought ( A Pella 6' wide from Lowes). Has a large nailing flange that is around it. My question is can I cut this nailing flange down to install this new door or do I need to pull my siding (not what I want to do). Thanks for the help

CDM

You need to remove the siding for 2 reasons. To get the door in place and secured properly and to install the membrane flashing over the flanges.
Ron

 

Ron

Thanks for the feedback. I got a quote from a Lowe's installer ($600 by the way) and he said they just cut the flange off and seal it up with caulk. So I assume you disagree with his technique. I just didn't want to spend $600 for someone to do half a days work (according to him). I'll post pictures tonight.

Chris

 

Ron

Thanks for the feedback. I got a quote from a Lowe's installer ($600 by the way) and he said they just cut the flange off and seal it up with caulk. So I assume you disagree with his technique. I just didn't want to spend $600 for someone to do half a days work (according to him). I'll post pictures tonight.

Chris

This is a perfect example of why to “Never Use Box Store Contractors.”

"if you hear it from a guy in the apron store, be VERY suspicious the mtl/method will work,,, when it comes to building something together, their phone won't be answered :laughing: NOR will they help :furious: "
itsreallyconc

 

I wouldn't want to pay someone $600 to do it wrong!!!!!

Ron's correct.
You HAVE to remove and reinstall the siding.
Most of the time the siding has to be recut to fit properly.... especially the piece going over the top of the new door.

 

I have another contractor coming out today to give me another quote. The instructions don't say cut the flange off. I didn't think what he said was correct that is why I was asking on here. Hopefully this other guy won't suggest the same thing. Problem I am having is finding someone to come out and do such a small job.

Chris

 

Installing a replacement slider is not such a small job and $600 to do it right is a fair price. It could be a lot more if there are other issues: the damage to the subfloor and any other rot issues should be repaired.

 

Well then do you think I would be able to remove the J chanel, bend the siding back install the new door then re-install the j chanel?

 

I don't think siding is that flexible, even in the Summer. In cooler weather it will crimp. In cold weather it will crack.
I had a similar issue with a sided house with 2 bad windows 6 feet apart. I had to remove almost 25% of the siding on the house to replace the windows and install them properly. It took twice as long to deal with the siding then it did the 2 windows.
Ron

 

Well this is probably a stupid question but do they make replacement sliding glass doors that do not have a nailing flange that still provide a good water tight seal, or would you recomment going with a door that has the flange?

 

You cannot get a watertight seal without removing the siding. I don't care how many idiot contractors come to your house and tell you differently.
Ron

 

Ron

Thanks for the help. I agree that removing the siding is def. the way to go.

Chris

 

Should be a “Golden Rule” of siding; “Caulk joints cannot be expected to remain functional indefinitely; leakage will eventually occur.” From; http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fpl_gtr169.pdf


Do you really want to rely on caulking at an important joint under vinyl siding? http://sidingmaster.com/documents/NewReportaboutsidingtrappingmoisture.pdf

The reason why to properly flash a door/window; http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:-KEvosasz54J:www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-water-managed-wall-systems/at_download/file+tape+the+foam+board+joints+and+forget+the+house+wrap&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiUzhg8KvNdLxIEtuINiBJ-KhLpZ51ALuDcFjZd54CUkDN1Ik5GIN_fy2tNYUNs3h87X2JL4XGkfR2hC7_tFZPCFkRhncVaF_PWmKNdIjnTKoa6Ihii7ESkZbL0ue-5uHWO8aAe&sig=AHIEtbTHa3XRIv3GvYAMWrZBbBZoIUXgxw

Gary

 

Thank you all to your comments. I am going to attempt to do it the right way this weekend. I will take photos and post as I go along. I found a pretty handy siding removal tool, I am going to remove or at least loosen all of the siding around my door and remove all of the old J chanel, pop out the old door, and then flash the bottom and half of the sides, install the new door, use Tyvek tape on top of the new nail flange and then re-side. I'll post the pics once i am done.

Also just a side note, I had a second contractor come out, he said the same as the first, you can cut the flange off or he offered to remove the siding and install it with the flange for an additional $250, so $990 total for installation only.

 

Thank you all to your comments. I am going to attempt to do it the right way this weekend. I will take photos and post as I go along. I found a pretty handy siding removal tool, I am going to remove or at least loosen all of the siding around my door and remove all of the old J chanel, pop out the old door, and then flash the bottom and half of the sides, install the new door, use Tyvek tape on top of the new nail flange and then re-side.

Being cdm probably has never replaced a sliding door before, keeping the flange intact is the correct way to go. This is DIY. If someone reads about cutting the flange off but then gets in over their head, they cannot take that door back.
If the new replacement door is not the exact size as the old one, removing siding or not is a moot point.
3/8 or 1/2" narrower or wider means a gap or the siding is too long. He may have to adjust the framing depending how tight/loose the original RO was.

 

Check out the bad J channel detail in the upper left corner....

This is what you DON'T want!!!!!

 

One reason people think they can get away with this shortcut, is because the door is under a roof.

Is yours?

 

One reason people think they can get away with this shortcut, is because the door is under a roof.

Is yours?

His installation is protected by a deep porch roof, so even if the installation is incorrect, he'll never see an issue.
That fact wasn't in his post when he basically recommended this type of job though.
Do you get the point, Coldiron?
Ron

 

DO NOT cut the top flange off. Anyone recommending you do so is a complete idiot and should NOT be listened to. Don't be lazy. Taking a few pieces of siding off is not a big deal.
- Cut the flange off and you void any warranty
- The door will end up binding over time since the top jamb will sag since it isn't supported
- The door will end up leaking
- After nailing, all flanges should be taped to the wall with approved door window tape to seal properly
- $600 is a decent price from someone who actually knows how to do it.

 

" Keep em coming all you contractor's I love it " Like all your details are perfect.

 

Nope..... just pointing out that one.

I have no doubt you have seen countless installs without nailing flanges.
He already has a door with a nailing flange.

We're just trying to help with a proper method of installation which is NOT cutting off a factory installed flange.

I've attended seminars on Graces' preferred method of door and window installations.
So here's how this "detailed " contractor would do it.

Remove the siding
Remove the door
Repair the subfloor (something was obviuosly wrong with the first installation)

Cut back the building paper 3-1/2" all around the opening.
This is the step I learned from the Grace reps.
By cutting back the paper, you are able to stick the Vycor directly to the sheathing.
They said the old way of cutting an X in the paper and wrapping the opening was now not acceptable practice.
Probably why OP has to repair the subfloor......

Prep the opening with Grace or Vycor 9" wrap.
This means wrapping the sill and 16" up each jamb.

Install the door with the nailing fin.
Install Vycor over the building paper, stick it to the exposed sheathing and over the nailing fin.

On the header, you pull back the building paper, install Vycor over the flange and directly to the sheathing.
Now flap the building paper over the Vycor .

You now have a positive water shed.

Now install J channel and siding

 

I guess everyone who installs replacement windows and doors is doing it wrong.

All the replacement windows and sliding doors I have seen show them without nailing flanges.

The doors with the nailing flanges are for new construction or for people who don't know how to properly install a replacement product.

I know silicon don't hold doors in place and use 3" screws for that.

DIY remember, I don't have to make a living picking apart peoples work because I am not Dependant on Contracting for a living.
All you Contractor's have a chip on your shoulder.
My installation is as good as or better than any Contractor that would have charged me $500 to 1000 for the install.

By the way I have a siding zipper tool in my tool box and know how to use it but I chose not to.
Nice picture HUH!!!!!!!!

 

No my door does not have an overhang. And the builder that installed it did something wrong because it is leaking. I hope to re-use the J-channel that was already on door.

Also have any of you used tyvek tape, is it any good?

 

No my door does not have an overhang. And the builder that installed it did something wrong because it is leaking. I hope to re-use the J-channel that was already on door.

Also have any of you used tyvek tape, is it any good?

"That's why I don't trust Builder's or Contractor's" Buy new J channel it's cheap.

 

Ron

I was going to use the tape to put over top of the door flange once it was installed and then put the siding back over top.

Cold Iron
the only reason I was trying to re-use the J channel was I am having trouble finding the color of my trim. I don't know where else to look other then the box stores.

 

Ron

I was going to use the tape to put over top of the door flange once it was installed and then put the siding back over top.

I kind of thought that was the reason. That would be a useless application of the product.
They sell a product specifically made for this application. It's an adhesive rubberized membrane you can pick up for about $20.00 in a big box store.
It's basically peel and stick.
Ron

 

In the OP, it was mentioned there was subfloor damage. Has this been addressed?

 

For the subfloor there is some rot right at the door. I have not removed the old door yet so I don't how bad it is under the door itself. My plan was to remove the door and replace the subfloor and whatever is under teh door that is not structurally sound.

 

There is a way to install that flanged door without removing the siding.
It will take some skill and a steady hand,but I've used it many times with
great results.
Once you have established where the door will line up in the opening,mark
the siding,top and sides, for a cut that will accept a desired casing width.
Slide something behind the siding to keep it away from the wall about 1/2"
or more,and cut out with a diamond blade in a small grinder.You may need to
do a little hand snipping in some spots.
Now you have easy access to install the door with the nailing flange intact.
After sealing around the flange,your ready to trim the door with new casing.
Make sure you use a wide enough piece of the tape-sealer to extend behind
siding a couple of inches.
PVC trim would work well here,just tack the J-channel to the side of it.and
slide it onto the edge of the siding.
Or:
You could run a piece of white flashing over the tape,and behind the siding
and finish with the PVC trim,routed out to form a flange that would extend
over the top of the siding,forming kind of a two piece J.

 

That’s a lot of work just to avoid removing a few minutes worth of vinyl siding.

I suppose on the plus side you don’t have to deal with the rot you can’t see.

 

Just throwing it out there as an option Ron,no need to throw in your digs.

Anyways:
It depends on the site details.I've found that sometimes the profile of the
new door may be narrower than the old one and the siding would be too short
anyways.
Once siding is removed,its also necessary to replace the house wrap so
all the old nail holes aren't inlets for any condensation or water intrusion.
(think like a rain drop)
Removing the siding can be more of a PITA because of the staggered joints,
keeping all the pieces in order to reinstall the same,dealing with shutters,
light fixtures,or anything else attached to it.The possibility of cracking
older irreplaceable siding would be another reason to leave it on.
It could actually be a lot faster.

I suppose on the plus side you don’t have to deal with the rot you can’t see

Kind of expected that remark,since your such a lover of vinyl!
You are just assuming this scenario to justify your opinion,and
since the OP's concern was with the new door installation,that is
all I'm addressing here.
If he had concerns regarding any possible siding leaks,I'd have
offered an approach to address that issue.

 

Thanks for everyones advice. I have attached a few photos of the before and after. After we got the old door out, we discovered that the original door did not have a nail flange which is fine. What is not fine is the builder used NO flashing and NO caulk for the frame. Can you believe that, the screws on the bottom of the frame were able to be pulled out by hand. So needless to say I had extensive decay. let me just add we have been in the house for 1 year so it wasn't me being lazy. The house was built in 1997, also as an FYI.

So taking everyone advice I removed or loosened all of the siding around the old door. If you are going to do this yourslef, do yourself a favor and get a siding removal tool, the big box stores sell them for about $6, they are worth every penny. After we got the door out we ripped the subfloor out, ripped the insulation, cut the floor joists just enought to sister another 2x10 PT in. On the corners we then cut another piece of 2x10 to fit between the joist to secure them as well. After that we re-insulated, put the subfloor back on and now was time to re-install the new door. Luckily the door frame was pretty square so we didn't have to do to much shimming. We also added rubber membrane flashing on the top and bottom of the door and loaded the door frame up with silcone caulk. After we got the door in I taped around the nail flange to get it secure. When we were intially removing the siding I damaged one of the pieces of the J-channel. Luckily the door we replaced was white so I just got some white J chanel and re-installed. For under the door, originally there was a tiny piece of siding that looked crappy, we replaced it with a product called Tuff board, its a composite white board and is suppose to be rot and mildew free. After we got all of the siding and J chanel back up we calked the seam where the j-chanel fits against the sliding glass door. Overall never having installed a sliding glass door it took about 14 hours, it would have been alot less if we didn't have so much decay. I hoped this was helpful to someone. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions, I saved myself $900 from having someone else install it and I know the job was done correctly.

 

sorry, and yes I did have to adjust the framing a little bit, the original opening was slightly to large for my door. So I ripped down a 1x6x8 PT board and attached. I checked many times that the walls were square and level. I now just have to finish off the inside.

 

One last question. While i was removing the siding I noticed my house has NO tyvek. Its just vinyl on top of shealthing. I assume back in 1997 it wasn't code? The sheathing looked fine but I wasn't happy seeing no vapor barrier what so ever. Since this whole project was spawned from re-doing my kitchen the siding will have to be another year.

 

One last question. While i was removing the siding I noticed my house has NO tyvek. Its just vinyl on top of shealthing. I assume back in 1997 it wasn't code? The sheathing looked fine but I wasn't happy seeing no vapor barrier what so ever. Since this whole project was spawned from re-doing my kitchen the siding will have to be another year.

There should have been something behind the siding. Old school would have had 15 lb felt paper. Real old school, 30 lb paper.
Ron

 

Sorry I wasn't following this thread sooner. I would have said to cut a section of deck board out (a rip) under the added trim piece for water drainage off the glazing. And foam board the rim joist with air sealing. At least you can caulk the trim piece if you didn't use any sticky wrap or a metal pan flashing under/behind it.
Anytime pictures are added for understanding, this is great. When I see something wrong in a picture, I will speak up... at least others may learn from it. This is one of the results one can expect on a forum with professionals present, it just jumps out at you!






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Gary

 

Ron

There was absolutely nothing behind the siding. I was amazed.


Also I did use the sticky membrane and I had wrapped it well past the trim board and 18" up on each side. Also around the door opening I didn't have any tyvek but used some roofing paper for a little added protection.