[xtal_01]

Just looking at options for trim on my new shop.

I used PVC (Kleer) trim on my house. I have noticed the gaps open a lot in winter. Never seem to go all the way close in summer (though we had butted the pieces fairly tight).

So, I am thinking I may have made a mistake ......

I was given a sample of "bear board". HDPE (plastic) with mineral filler .... Black! The color I was looking for!

On a 12 ft board, according to the spec sheet I will get almost 3/4" over expansion over 100 deg.

We do get that plus a bit. We can hit -30 ... and get up to 90 (we average 5 days above 90 each summer) .... high of 12 today (-1 with chill factor) ... 5 tonight (-8 with chill factor).

So they suggest leaving 3/8" gap on each end.

That means I would need to leave 3/4" gap between two boards.

Two questions come to mind ...

1) What do you do at the ends ... make some kind of slip joint? You would not want to see right through and the idea of the trim is to protect the boards behind.

2) Why does this not pull the nails out or "oil can" ... or will it? I am thinking if you nail a the trim say every 12 ". it would "grow" and either push out all the nails ... or expand between the points where it is nailed and "oil can".

If it did this, no one would use it.

Maybe I should have done something different with my PVC trim?

What am I missing ???

Thanks ..... Mike

 

[SLSTech]

Half lap joint...
Really good glue...
Might want to check out pdf's / videos on AZEK's site for lots of good tips & tricks

 

[XSleeper]

Manufacturers instructions and real life application are two different things. The manufacturers only care about the liability they might have for their product. So they make instructions that are often not practical to follow to a T.

Some guys will make overlapping rabbet joints so that the joint is kind of self flashing and can expand and contract. And these gaps get left uncaulked. But it looks like crap to have gaps everywhere. And painters are going to come along and try and caulk every crack anyway.

So what many have found is that these sort of products should just be avoided due to their expansion and contraction. Or use a product like BORAL TruExterior that is far more stable.

Typically on the multimillion dollar projects I've been on where Azek is spec'd by designers and architects (who have not yet abandoned it) we screw it on (most instructions tell you not to) and epoxy it together, and use epoxy as the caulking to bond all edges and seams. This creates problems of its own, but we have found that this is better than the alternative.

When the Azek is screwed, it will sometimes crack when it shrinks, or bulge between fasteners when it expands... but often it can take most of those stresses. The problem occurs on long continuous runs that have no expansion joints, like fascia, watertable, frieze, etc.

So there is no perfect answer. And you DEFINITELY do not want to paint Azek (and other brands of PVC) dark colors. Their instructions say you must use paints with an LRV of 55 or higher. LRV is light reflective value, which is a statistic every paint color will have, if you look it up.

 

[xtal_01]

Exactly all my worst fears!

I am still arguing with myself onto what I should put around the bottom of my shop ... need something say 6 - 12 inches that can get wet (as the pad is just above grade) and take some abuse (getting hit was a weed eater) ... above that will be siding.

I checked the Boral .... only comes primed ... even if it holds up, I will be painting it every year as the weed eater takes off the paint.

The PVC I have found only comes in white .... I want black.

Neil says to use galvanized steel .... probably the best but I don't like the look of shiny steel running around the bottom of my black building.

I thought I had figured it out with this stuff but then I started reading and realized I might have problems with expansion / contraction ... so I posted to confirm this.

Looks like I am still searching for something to cover the bottom of my shop.

As always, open for suggestions ....

Thanks .... Mike

Just FYI ... one thing I am looking at is pavers (the info on the page says they can be used as bricks) ... 7 x 7 x 1 3/4 or 10.5 x 7 x 1 3/4

I could stand them up ... glue them down (rather than cement) ... and make some kind of metal flashing / cap. But Grace or Blueskin behind them to seal up the bottom of the wall.

Lots of work ...but might be the best solution.

 

[XSleeper]

Sounds like you should build your building on a concrete stem wall that is above grade. Paint the concrete black.

 

[xtal_01]

Talk about going around in circles

My original idea way back when was to put on single 4" wide concrete block down .... then build the wall on that.

I would glue the block down and together (because I have cracks in my pad and it is moving ..... lots of re-bar ... you could not tell it is moving but it pops out my patches so I know it moves a very slight bit ..... I figure the glue will flex just a bit but motor will crack).

I was going to use "split block" ... so it has a rough face ... would look better than a plain block.

I was going to glue foam to the inside for insulation.

I then thought I would bolt (epoxy threaded rod into the pad) down say a 2 x 8.

I could snap a line on them and cut them down to 2 x 6 (this would ensure a very straight wall).

Then the wall could hang over the block ... no chance of water getting in there.

Anyway ... I was old I was nuts.

The blocks would tip ... not as strong as building on the pad.

Then there was the question of how I would lift the wall 8" onto the blocks (can't just tip it up).

I was told the small amount of insulation on the inside of the block would give me a very cold area all around the building.

Did I say I have changed my mind a dozen times!

I know there is no perfect answer .... just looking for the best with what I have to work with.

Thanks!

 

[XSleeper]

Yeah you need to open your own forum.

 

[xtal_01]

My problem is I always look for problems ... I have always been this way.

I am a machinist by trade ... then went to a three year college for mechanical engineering.

I have had may jobs .... sometimes in maintenance ... sometimes in design / installation of equipment.

My last "real" job (I quite and moved to VT to be with a woman I met here) was with Westinghouse Nuclear manufacturing fuel. $1 million per hour when we were down.

You can bet I looked at every "what if" before we did a job. Everything from designing the equipment ... to installing it ... to setting up spares ... to making sure it could be brought back up quickly if it went down.

A couple weeks ago, an electric control panel I built got hit by lightning (not a direct hit ... probably hit one of the pumps it controlled). Fried one of the channels that reports flow. I had thought this could happen ... I already had two spare channels wired up inside the control panel. They changed two wires in the field ... I made a few changes remotely over the internet .... two hours and they where up and running. This panel controls pumps keeping contaminated ground water out of a municipal water well.

Anyway ... probably overthinking this entire project ... it is only a workshop ... but I want to make sure I pick the best possible solutions.

Thanks!

Mike

 

[XSleeper]

I have cracks in my pad and it is moving

If thats the case I don't know why you would even consider putting a building on top of it. You put buildings on solid footings, not on a cracked pad. You also don't "glue blocks down".

But yeah, I've done a few construction projects for a local machinist who sounds quite similar.. I'm in the middle of one right now in fact. He is without a doubt the worst guy I have worked for in 30 yrs when it comes to making a decision, he frets about everything and has to exhaust every possibility. Then you don't hear from him for 6 months. And then he calls and wants to revisit it all over again. That gets old real quick.

 

[Missouri Bound]

Anyway ... probably overthinking this entire project ... it is only a workshop

Of course you are.....it's only a workshop.
It's your OCD that I would worry about, not the fkn' trim.

 

[xtal_01]

You must be talking to my wife!

I like to think I am the nice type of machinist. I pay people to do work and then I end up re-doing it myself because it was done wrong or I was unhappy with the quality of the work.

One problem is I put my faith in the framer I hired to build the house we were in. I then had to double up the floor joists because it felt like I was walking on a trampoline.

I had to replace two 12" LVL's with 3 16" LVL's because the floor was sagging. I was proud of myself for calculating where the highest stress point would be ...and the drywall cracked in exactly that spot.

I hate that I have a pad ... I wanted a full frost wall. I got talked into this by the guy building my house and the concrete contractor ... both said to got his way .. even the excavator said it was the way he built his shop.

Worst decision I ever made.

I actually got a price on breaking up 3500 sq ft of concrete and putting in a proper foundation ..... OUCH .... almost as much to do that as to build the entire shop.

So I am stuck with a cracked pad and trying not to make any more mistakes.

And I realize I am probably no helping myself asking questions on the web .... the more I ask, the more opinions ... the more I get confused.

I just keep thinking there has got to be some clear answer as to a "best" way to build this shop.

Probably the other "issue" I have is not OCD but rather it was driven into me from an early age that you must live with your decisions. Barely having enough money to do this once, I know what ever I built I will need to live with it for the rest of my life (I am 58 and don't plan on doing this again).

I do appreciate all the information and advice.

My wife keeps reminding me I can't play around too long. Since I am planning to do as much of the work as I can myself, I need to start as soon as the weather breaks or it won't get done.

Thanks ...... Mike

PS ... below is a drawing I made last year ... shows the wall on a 4" split bock to raise it up.

 

[XSleeper]

No building department would approve putting it on a 4" block. Pretty sure they also will not go for glue. Most balk at 6" blocks too. You would use an 8" block because the core can be filled with 4" of concrete around the rebar which is standard. 8" sill plate, and your wall would be built off that.

 

[xtal_01]

Building department? Approval? You must be one of those city folk.

For my house, all they wanted was a square showing where I was building on the property and a stamped engineering paper for the septic system.

They came out once during building to check the septic install.

When I was done ... they came in ... flushed the toilet .... checked water ran in at least one sink ... got my certificate of occupancy.

I learned my lesson about 10 years ago. I lifted a garage to rebuild the sill (had rotted because dirt was piled on the outside of the garage ... not my place). It was a pad ... cracked .. but had been there for over 50 years! Put down two rows of 8" block .... rebar between the coarse. Rebuilt the sill and lowered down the garage (not bad for a one man job).

I checked it a year later .... right where the pad is cracked, the blocks cracked! I actually have blocks cracked right in half!

Rebar held it together but still has cracks that opened a bit in the blocks.

So, I don't want to make the same mistake on my place. If the pad is cracked I probably should not be cementing block to it.

The only reason I think glue will work is that it has a 200% elongation. I talked with the engineers at the factory ... they said it should work find. Really the bock would be sandwiched between the pad and sill ... can't go far.

All that said, I did drop this idea.... 8" block .... then 2" of foam ... and then drywall .... Now we are taking up a lot of interior space.

I liked the 4" block because he wall would hang over it ... no problems sealing for water.

Again, I just feel a bit lost. One person says put a row of block ... once says build right on the pad ... one says put galvanized steel ... once says PVC ....

Just searching for a good "affordable" answer.

Thanks again .... Mike

 

[ront02769]

Didn’t read it all....but if you glue the pieces at the joint with like Azeri cement they become one.....and all expansion/contraction will be at the ends.

 

[taylorjm]

Didn’t read it all....but if you glue the pieces at the joint with like Azeri cement they become one.....and all expansion/contraction will be at the ends.

Yup. With the pvc trim you need to glue the corners with a form of pvc glue similar to with plastic pipes. I have some pieces that are 17' long over the top of my double garage door and none of the corners come apart even in the sub zero temps in Michigan. Then I have some on other areas of the house that are only 5' long but weren't glued and like you said, the mitered corners will split apart at least an 1/8".

 

[xtal_01]

Thanks!

Lots of great information.

If I go with vinyl siding (decided between wood and vinyl), the I wanted PVC corners. Hollow siding corners just don't seem to take any abuse like PVC (or other plastic) will. Only 4 corners on the building but 18 ft high walls on the outside.

Mike