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Pigtail length and organization for GFCI breakers

4K views 19 replies 10 participants last post by  afjes2015  
#1 ·
Apologies for the silly questions that follow. Every single breaker I had installed previously was a plug-on neutral, so I never had to deal with this before. Frankly, after this experience, I hope to never deal with it again. Siemens, get your crap together and start making plug-on variants for all amperages already.

Anyway, here’s my two 30A GFCI breakers, installed:

Image


  • The length of exposed neutral wire here is just what came in the box with the insulation pre-cut. Is it fine to leave it as is or should I trim it to not have so much wire exposed?
  • The pigtail length is similarly as it came in the box. You can see from the location of the breaker and bar that I don’t need this much. Should I cut it off? My concern is that it’s not like this wire can be replaced. Once it’s cut, it’s done and you can’t reposition the breaker later if needed. What’s the recommended way to do this?
  • Finally, these breakers came with flathead lugs to hold down the wires. Wtf? Every single other Siemens breaker I’ve seen in my life, including the plain non-GFCI versions these replaced, had square drive that allowed for proper torquing without stripping out the lugs. Is there someplace I can get replacement ones that have square drive for these? I already managed to start stripping the screws on these.

Thanks for the advice.
 
#3 ·
Apparently the plug-on-neutral isn't robust enough for higher amperages. Other manufacturers have the same issue.

Those Siemens 2 pole GFCIs were last updated around 30 years ago. It would be nice if they could shrink them down a bit along with using better screws. I think they need to be slotted to support the torque specs. You do need to use a bigger screwdriver bit .
 
#4 ·
I wouldn't think the bar not being robust would be the reason. It would have to do with how the clip for the neutral connects to the bar. Making it more difficult to seat the breaker on the stabs and the plug-on neutral with a 2-pole breaker. I wouldn't think any 120V to neutral loads on a 2-pole breaker would have any more amperage than a single pole. For example, a dryer or stove, uses a neutral for the 120V parts and the amperage is very low.

2-pole GFCI breakers don't even have to have a load neutral to work, they only need the neutral to power the electronics internal to the breaker.
 
#6 ·
I disagree with the 60 amp bus and 60 amp neutral statement. It is very common on feeders to reduce the neutral because of the amount of loading at 240v. Most neutral bus lugs are not the same size in a panel as the main bus.
I would bet that 99% of the panels sold today in the USA the neutral is a different size/rating as the current carrying parts. I went and looked and did not find any information stating what 2 MFG's were doing on the neutrals.
I did see on 2 pages that you can put 3 14-10 wires under the same ground or neutral lug. That is a change I was not aware of .
 
#10 ·
I disagree with the 60 amp bus and 60 amp neutral statement. It is very common on feeders to reduce the neutral because of the amount of loading at 240v. Most neutral bus lugs are not the same size in a panel as the main bus.
I would bet that 99% of the panels sold today in the USA the neutral is a different size/rating as the current carrying parts. I went and looked and did not find any information stating what 2 MFG's were doing on the neutrals.
I did see on 2 pages that you can put 3 14-10 wires under the same ground or neutral lug. That is a change I was not aware of .
I was looking at the breakers' perspective as you are correct in that neutral bars are frequently sized smaller. From what I've seen Siemens uses 8 gauge for the pigtails on all of their dual pole GFCI breakers. So yes, undersized for a 60 amp neutral load even if you go by the 90Âş column.

You can put 3 wires under the same ground or neutral lug on a busbar but only ground wires, not neutrals. The Siemens AFCI breakers state one cable per lug.
 
#7 ·
Those Siemens 2 pole GFCIs were last updated around 30 years ago. It would be nice if they could shrink them down a bit along with using better screws. I think they need to be slotted to support the torque specs.
Oh wow. Yeah the size is pretty asinine too. Didn’t realize how huge they were until I took them out of the box. That top breaker is now blocking what, 6 or 7 lugs on the neutral bar as a result?

I don’t follow the torquing specs though? The regular breakers seem to have no issues with that? I’d think a square drive would make it easier not harder anyway since there’s less risk of stripping.
 
#8 ·
The pigtail length is similarly as it came in the box. You can see from the location of the breaker and bar that I don’t need this much. Should I cut it off? My concern is that it’s not like this wire can be replaced.
Why not?

You're already doing that with all your branch circuits. Having to replace a GFCI because the pigtail is too short is no different than having to bust drywall to re-run a circuit because hot/neutral are too short. Your preference for a "neat panel" has painted yourself into a corner for ever being able to move circuits around, so "in for a penny, in for a pound". Neat the GFCI also.

I mean in both cases (the branch circuit and the GFCI) you could always extend the wire with a wire nut, but that would be.... unaesthetic.
 
#9 ·
Not sure I see the need for aggression here. Did you even see the rest of my box? I don’t particularly care about “neatness” but I also don’t like having a rat’s nest in there so that I have enough space to do stuff and don’t need to shut off the entire panel when I’m moving things around.
 
#12 ·
I don’t particularly care about “neatness” but I also don’t like having a rat’s nest in there so that I have enough space to do stuff and don’t need to shut off the entire panel when I’m moving things around.
Well if neatness is not a priority then yeah, just extend with wire nuts if that ever becomes necessary.

I for one prefer the GFCI pigtails look like pigtails so I know what they are.
 
#16 ·
CurlyQ pigtails - cut to length and straiten 'em out.
Why they ever thunk a coilyQ wire was a good way2do things is beyond me.
CurlyQ pigtails - cut to length and straiten 'em out.
Why they ever thunk a coilyQ wire was a good way2do things is beyond me.
The curled neutral pigtail on a GFCI breaker is a convenience for installation, providing enough length to reach the neutral bar regardless of the breaker's position in the panel and also serving as a visual identifier for the GFCI's protected neutral. While the coil is not an electrical requirement, it allows for flexibility if the breaker needs to be moved and helps distinguish the GFCI's protected neutral from other wires, enhancing safety.

It is fine to cut them shorter and straighten
 
#18 ·
The curled neutral pigtail on a GFCI breaker is a convenience for installation, providing enough length to reach the neutral bar regardless of the breaker's position in the panel and also serving as a visual identifier for the GFCI's protected neutral. While the coil is not an electrical requirement, it allows for flexibility if the breaker needs to be moved and helps distinguish the GFCI's protected neutral from other wires, enhancing safety.

It is fine to cut them shorter and straighten
Ya. But why does the neutral wire need to be coiled?
Would not a simpler "wind up the wire and tierap it for packaging sake" be enuff?