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Neverends

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I thought I’d share this. Sure, anybody can buy R410A but technically it’s not legal for just anybody to handle and use it. However, if you become EPA 608 Certified you can legally buy and use a certain amount.

Most all mini splits available to the public are pre charged with R410A in which there is no need to be EPA 608 certified. However, some mini splits being sold to the public will say must be installed by HVAC tech or the warranty void.

However, many will honor the warranty if you are 608 certified.

Anyhow, it’s pretty easy to get EPA 608 Certified

Image
 
No.
The whole test is essentially just telling you not to release refrigerant into the atmosphere.
It isn't about instructing you how to measure charge. Or anything about being a tech.
But it's still valuable to be able to legally buy refrigerant legally and presumably also return recovered refrigerant - and for warranty purposes when that's all diy unit supplier needs.
 
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But it's still valuable to be able to legally buy refrigerant legally and presumably also return recovered refrigerant - and for warranty purposes when that's all diy unit supplier needs.
Possibly.
A lot of US vendors still refuse service to folks that aren’t associated with companies.
Which is their deal. I could really care less.
My original answer stemmed from past experience. Some folks seem to think the EPA test is what teaches techs to be techs.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Some folks seem to think the EPA test is what teaches techs to be techs.
I don’t see it that way at all. I do see it pretty much as a legality but I see that being extremely important to the trade. Without it a tech can’t do anything dealing with refrigerant.

Sure I don’t have to have a drivers license to drive a car; the same as I don’t have to have a license to work on or install HVAC.

But for someone like me who is a diy’er, unable to purchase refrigerant is a show stopper in a lot of ways. I play by the rules and adhere to the laws.

For me, the only reason to get EPA 608 certified is to be able to buy refrigerant. And as I mentioned earlier, companies like Senville will uphold their mini split warranty if you’re EPA certified. Personally, I don’t care about warranties but many do.
 
I don’t see it that way at all. I do see it pretty much as a legality but I see that being extremely important to the trade. Without it a tech can’t do anything dealing with refrigerant.

Sure I don’t have to have a drivers license to drive a car; the same as I don’t have to have a license to work on or install HVAC.

But for someone like me who is a diy’er, unable to purchase refrigerant is a show stopper in a lot of ways. I play by the rules and adhere to the laws.

For me, the only reason to get EPA 608 certified is to be able to buy refrigerant. And as I mentioned earlier, companies like Senville will uphold their mini split warranty if you’re EPA certified. Personally, I don’t care about warranties but many do.
I should've said I’m not accusing you directly of that. Just something I've seen.
A lot of those test questions are quite silly when it comes to what’s done in the field.
 
I don’t see it that way at all. I do see it pretty much as a legality but I see that being extremely important to the trade. Without it a tech can’t do anything dealing with refrigerant.

Sure I don’t have to have a drivers license to drive a car; the same as I don’t have to have a license to work on or install HVAC.

But for someone like me who is a diy’er, unable to purchase refrigerant is a show stopper in a lot of ways. I play by the rules and adhere to the laws.

For me, the only reason to get EPA 608 certified is to be able to buy refrigerant. And as I mentioned earlier, companies like Senville will uphold their mini split warranty if you’re EPA certified. Personally, I don’t care about warranties but many do.
Warranty is important on mini-split because of how the parts are all proprietary.
Plus the diy ones are on the lower end of quality likely - made by midea or gree.
Expect a senville to be a 10 year unit, once warranty is done and it breaks time for a new one unless it's a simple electrical failure with part still available.
Expect a mistubishi to be a 15 to 25 year unit.

Shameful the industry is going disposable.
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
Warranty is important on mini-split because of how the parts are all proprietary.
Plus the diy ones are on the lower end of quality likely - made by midea or gree.
Expect a senville to be a 10 year unit, once warranty is done and it breaks time for a new one unless it's a simple electrical failure with part still available.
Expect a mistubishi to be a 15 to 25 year unit.

Shameful the industry is going disposable.
I borrowed this elsewhere but I feel it sums brands up pretty good:


The brands fall into three categories:

1) Premium
2) mid range and
3) budget.

--> Mr. Cool is in it's own category (see below).

Premium brands seem to be : Mitsubishi, Daikin, amd Fujitsu. These are Japanese brands. Mitsu and Fuji are, I believe, made in Japan unlike the majority of the others. Daikin is reputedly made in the US. These japanese brands Generally have slighly longer warranties, and considered high quality. They are favored by HVAC contractors and have a decent network of dealers in the US which may matter if you want one installed/repaired by a contractor. Note: you may be able to get these on your own and install them DIY, however, rumor has it that you will not be able to get any tech support/warranty support on a DIY install. On the other hand you will probably be able find a tech to work on it if you need it. But if you want tech/customer support as a DIYer read on.

Mid range brands include brands like Pioneer, Senville, Cooper and Hunter, Alpine/Blueridge, and others. These are cheaper than the premium brands but still very popular. The consensus is that all the mid range brands are built in China by one of two manufacturers : Gree or Midea. Both companies have been building minisplits for a while and are considered good quality. The real distinction among the mid range and budget brands is in the area of support. Some mid range brands distinguish themselves by having better customer/tech/warranty/parts support for DIYers. Pioneer and Alpine/Blueridge reputedly will warranty a DIY install. And midrange brands reputedly have excellent tech support. This is a factor because many HVAC companies will not work on anything besides the premium brands.

Lastly come the budget brands. Names like Tosot, Rovsun, Della, come to mind but there are MANY. These distinguish themselves by the lowest price points. Like the mid range brands they are reputedly also made by Gree or Midea in China. Many argue that these are the same quality as the mid range brands (as they are built by the SAME manufacturers. However, they often have poor/non-existent tech/customer/parts/warranty support. So if support is important to you, you should keep this in mind. These brands often appeal to people for whom price is the paramount consideration.

Edit: among the budget brands is a subset that I will call "gray market" brands/models. These are units that were not built for export to the US, but rather for Mexico and other countries. They often have peculiarities that make them less desirable for the US market like oddities in the way the wiring is set up. A clue is a statement like "Not for use in the US". Or a name plate with specs entirely in Spanish. Nonetheless they sometimes find their way into the US. They are often very very cheap but have the same issues with support as mentioned above. Use them at your own peril.

Lastly there is Mr. Cool. Mr. Cool deserves its own category because (so far as i know) it is the only (or one of the few) that come with PRE-Charged LINESETS. This feature allows a person to install and run the system WITHOUT vacuuming down/ vacuum testing /nitrogen (pressure) testing. This means you need a *lot * fewer tools to install. And the install will go quicker. Or so i understand. Having said that, they have a spotty reputation for tech/customer/warranty support. Some people buy through Ingrams Water and Air Equiment (IWAE) who reputedly OWN the brand, and reputedly offer better tech/customer/warranty support If you buy through them (as oppsed to directly from Mr Cool website. So simpler install but maybe spottier support.
 
I borrowed this elsewhere but I feel it sums brands up pretty good:


The brands fall into three categories:

1) Premium
2) mid range and
3) budget.

--> Mr. Cool is in it's own category (see below).

Premium brands seem to be : Mitsubishi, Daikin, amd Fujitsu. These are Japanese brands. Mitsu and Fuji are, I believe, made in Japan unlike the majority of the others. Daikin is reputedly made in the US. These japanese brands Generally have slighly longer warranties, and considered high quality. They are favored by HVAC contractors and have a decent network of dealers in the US which may matter if you want one installed/repaired by a contractor. Note: you may be able to get these on your own and install them DIY, however, rumor has it that you will not be able to get any tech support/warranty support on a DIY install. On the other hand you will probably be able find a tech to work on it if you need it. But if you want tech/customer support as a DIYer read on.

Mid range brands include brands like Pioneer, Senville, Cooper and Hunter, Alpine/Blueridge, and others. These are cheaper than the premium brands but still very popular. The consensus is that all the mid range brands are built in China by one of two manufacturers : Gree or Midea. Both companies have been building minisplits for a while and are considered good quality. The real distinction among the mid range and budget brands is in the area of support. Some mid range brands distinguish themselves by having better customer/tech/warranty/parts support for DIYers. Pioneer and Alpine/Blueridge reputedly will warranty a DIY install. And midrange brands reputedly have excellent tech support. This is a factor because many HVAC companies will not work on anything besides the premium brands.

Lastly come the budget brands. Names like Tosot, Rovsun, Della, come to mind but there are MANY. These distinguish themselves by the lowest price points. Like the mid range brands they are reputedly also made by Gree or Midea in China. Many argue that these are the same quality as the mid range brands (as they are built by the SAME manufacturers. However, they often have poor/non-existent tech/customer/parts/warranty support. So if support is important to you, you should keep this in mind. These brands often appeal to people for whom price is the paramount consideration.

Edit: among the budget brands is a subset that I will call "gray market" brands/models. These are units that were not built for export to the US, but rather for Mexico and other countries. They often have peculiarities that make them less desirable for the US market like oddities in the way the wiring is set up. A clue is a statement like "Not for use in the US". Or a name plate with specs entirely in Spanish. Nonetheless they sometimes find their way into the US. They are often very very cheap but have the same issues with support as mentioned above. Use them at your own peril.

Lastly there is Mr. Cool. Mr. Cool deserves its own category because (so far as i know) it is the only (or one of the few) that come with PRE-Charged LINESETS. This feature allows a person to install and run the system WITHOUT vacuuming down/ vacuum testing /nitrogen (pressure) testing. This means you need a *lot * fewer tools to install. And the install will go quicker. Or so i understand. Having said that, they have a spotty reputation for tech/customer/warranty support. Some people buy through Ingrams Water and Air Equiment (IWAE) who reputedly OWN the brand, and reputedly offer better tech/customer/warranty support If you buy through them (as oppsed to directly from Mr Cool website. So simpler install but maybe spottier support.
One factor behind the decision should be intended use.
If it is to be primary source of heat in a cold climate or only source of cooling in a brutally hot climate, the china brands should all be avoided. Reliability and lifespan really matter as equipment will be used a lot more and wear out faster - and consequences for failure are greater -> aka, can't live without heat in a cold climate in winter, could be forced to use baseboard heaters if installed or plug in space heaters and pay through the nose while the system is down.

For some supplemental heating/cooling or just cooling in a mild climate, china brand should be okay.
 
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However, many will honor the warranty if you are 608 certified.
And how do you know that?
Any documentation to prove it?
You mentioned Senville.
They say that:
**Pressure test and Evacuation of the line sets must be handled by a licensed
HVAC professional**

Having a 608 certification doesn't make you a licensed HVAC professional
A 608 certification isn't a license to install or service HVAC equipment.
How many mini-splits have YOU installed?
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
And how do you know that?
Any documentation to prove it?
You mentioned Senville.
They say that:
**Pressure test and Evacuation of the line sets must be handled by a licensed
HVAC professional**

Having a 608 certification doesn't make you a licensed HVAC professional
A 608 certification isn't a license to install or service HVAC equipment.
How many mini-splits have YOU installed?
Email Senville inquiring about warranty since they state exactly what you posted. Of course they respond with my name but I delete it here.

Reply:
****
Hi …….. ,

No problem, We will cover you under warranty you can attach your EPA 608 Universal Certificate when sending in the warranty certificates
**

but yeah, me saying “many” I can’t say that but assuming others would also since Senville said they would. Email or call and find out for yourself and then you can have iron clad proof.

I have not installed any mini splits as of today. I am getting all of my ducks in a row before I do.
 
Here's a blurb about mini splits, don't know how accurate it is but seems well written.


For $10.00 and a self proctored exam that 98% pass ( wink ), get the 608. If you fail don't tell us.😁
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Here's a blurb about mini splits, don't know how accurate it is but seems well written.


For $10.00 and a self proctored exam that 98% pass ( wink ), get the 608. If you fail don't tell us.😁
Brands and asking which is best is no different than the automobile industry. Ford better than Chevy.. no Chevy better than Ford…..no Toyota the best … sorry wrong again ….Honda’ are the best… lol
 
No problem, We will cover you under warranty you can attach your EPA 608 Universal Certificate when sending in the warranty certificates
**
First of all, thanks for posting that. I'm surprised at their latitude.
I also have the 608 certification, and it does indeed say "technician" on it.
Do you have the universal certificate?
I got mine because of R22 requirements....which are moot now because of their obsolescence.
 
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Many states do not have residential HVAC licensing, while there are certifications required to work with gas, for example, or the EPA 608 certification discussed here. These have nothing to do with the equipment installation.

I'm with Roughneck, precharged linesets are terrible.
 
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