[warmsmeallup]

can I put the cable on top of the perforated cover or in the gutter itself? Thanks,

For the obvious reasons, you'll have to remove the covers and insert them in the gutters without replacing the cover until spring.

 

[ohmom2k8]

The right product to use is called Self-Regulating Heat Cable. "Self Regulating" means that the cable will get warmer, the colder it is outside. That saves energy when it's 30 degrees as compared to when it's 10 degrees. The stuff at the box stores is just a one temp element that goes to it's maximum temperature no matter what the outside temperature is.

The zig zag pattern that someone reffered you to is what you would do with the cable when applying it to your roof. When you are installing it in your gutters and downspouts the best application is a double run. The cable will melt any snow or ice that is in contact with it and (generally) within 1" around it. If you have a heavy snow fall, it will igloo in the gutter and then re-freeze over the top. So, a double run will keep the gutter clear. You do the same thing down the downspout.

If you have 330 linear feet of gutter, you probably have 8-10 downspouts. They need to be heated as well or it will just refreeze in the downspout and you won't be solving the problem. As a less expensive way to approach the problem, you could only treat the areas that get no sun and work from there.

Next is the controls.

I should say that this is our experience with gutter melt systems and experience dictates that we won't install them any other way.

Sounds like my problem. Thanks for the help! By the way how much did it cost you?

 

[Scuba_Dave]

Some people have observed that having the heating cables only moves the ice dam further up the roof - beyond the heat cable
So it may solve the problem, it may not
With the snow we had & the winter it would not have removed the ice dams from my roof

 

[warmsmeallup]

Some people have observed that having the heating cables only moves the ice dam further up the roof - beyond the heat cable
So it may solve the problem, it may not

That's absolutely correct. Installing cables ON the roof and in the gutters is application driven. If you have an overhang where the water can refreeze before even getting to the gutters, you will have an ice dam on the roof as well.

The worst part about the design of cables on the roof is that if you have a good snow or ice slide, it can tear the cables off the roof and take the shingles with them. That's why we also use under shingle/metal heating systems as well. They certainly ain't cheap, but they are a real fix for the probelm.

 

[dizzy3434]

Having large amounts of snow and ice on my roof last year I have decided that I need to install heat tape in the rain gutters. Heat tape companies state that you should run the tape in the gutters and in a zig-zag pattern along the eaves but that adds up to a LOT of tape and a much higher electric bill. I have 330 feet of gutters. I have spoken to several electricians and rain gutter folks and they say that all I need is to run the tape in the gutter as that is what needs to be kept free of ice. The house is new and has plenty of blown in insulation and plenty of attic ventilation.

Has anyone used this tape and if so, what has been your experience with it. Should I run the zig-zag pattern?

Thanks

Running the tape in your gutters will help prevent extreme damming but chances are that the ice is forming higher up on your roof where warmer air in the attic is warming your roof and melting the snow turning it into ice. It is best to use the zigzag pattern 3 or 4 rows of shingles up using the included clips. As to your high electric bill, they now have tape with control modules, where you can adjust the tape to turn on when the tape reaches a certain temperature. They also come with moisture sensors and activate when they sense water. Hope this helps.

 

[iceonroof]

Does heat cable have to be on continuously?

In the mountains of Colorado, I have self-regulating heat cable installed on 3 separate circuits on the North, West and South roofs. My electricity monitor indicates that I consume approximately 2500 watts per hour for all three circuits, thus costing around $144/mo. if all circuits are left on continuously.
One roofer told me to leave the circuits (ranging from 75' to 150' in 20 amp lines) on continuously, partly because cold startups draw a large amount number of amps. Another roofer told me to activate the cables only between around 10 am to 3 pm when it warms up a bit and the sun is out to facilitate melting. Obviously, I would rather do the latter and use time clocks to save money, even though I would probably leave the North circuit on all the time where ice damming is the greater problem.
Can anyone provide some advice re. this issue?

 

[warmsmeallup]

Why don't you just use a temperature/moisture sensor? It will activate the system when temps fall below 38 degrees (adjustable from 32 - 40) and the sensor gets wet from either rain or snow. You can also position it in the gutter so that it 'sees' water flowing off the roof.

They sell for about $300.00. If you have a swtch that activates a coil to turn on your 3 zones, it can be connected between the coil and the service. It has the ability to control up to 120/240v/30a. You can also take it another step and install a controller for the sensor inside your home.

 

[iceonroof]

Thought of that

Why don't you just use a temperature/moisture sensor? It will activate the system when temps fall below 38 degrees (adjustable from 32 - 40) and the sensor gets wet from either rain or snow. You can also position it in the gutter so that it 'sees' water flowing off the roof.

They sell for about $300.00. If you have a swtch that activates a coil to turn on your 3 zones, it can be connected between the coil and the service. It has the ability to control up to 120/240v/30a. You can also take it another step and install a controller for the sensor inside your home.

Well, I thought of that, but the problem is, at 8700 ft. elevation, it is almost always below 32 degrees. At night, it is usually close to or below 0 degrees. I have read that heat cable does almost no good when it is quite cold, but I don't have any solid data. Of course, one could use a combination of thermostat and clock.

 

[warmsmeallup]

It is true that when it gets below zero, it's difficult to get enough heat out of the SR cable. But temperature alone will not activate the system. It must get wet as well.

What is the design of the layout? Is the a single, double or triple run of cable in the gutters and leaders?

 

[iceonroof]

Well, I should know more, but I don't. I think it is a single run both zig-zagged on the roof and then down the gutter.

The moisture feature does sound interesting, as melting ice would have to be next to the cable for it to be functional. Thus, it should shut down either when it has melted enough ice/snow or when it can't melt accumulation. Is there any concern about large amp drains for repeated start-ups with this setup.

Thanks a lot for you help.

 

[warmsmeallup]

Though there's probably nothing you can do now, we have installed enough SR cable to know that a single run in your working conditions won't be enough to keep the gutter clear.

As for your start-up issues, I would need to know the setup. Which cable do you have 120 or 240v? How many feet on each run in total? What controls are there? i.e., just three circuit breakers or is there a control panel with buttons on the front? etc.. the more information you can give me, the more I can feed back. Keep in mind, garbage in...

 

[iceonroof]

The circuits are all 110. I'm approximating, but the one on the North side is around 150' as is that on the South side. The one on the East side is around 50'-75'. Unfortunately, they are wired in from locations that are separated by a substantial distance, two in outside plugs but one in a peripheral fuse box in the garage. I guess I could rig something near the main fuse box, but that would take somewhat more skill than I have. I'm liking the moisture/temperature alternative, but buying three of them could get expensive.

 

[warmsmeallup]

Hoping they are truely on separate circuits, you don't need three sensors. Plus, make sure that they used GFEP breakers, not GFCI. GFEP breakers are ground fault equipment Protection, not people protection and they are more forgiving on startup.

You only need a 120v/30a three pole contactor (maybe $100 if they treat you fairly), with a 120v coil. The lengths of cable you have out can really only be run on 3 separate circuits. Depending on the manufacturer, generally speaking, a 120v/30a dedicated circuit can have a maximum of about 175+/- linear feet of cable on it before requiring a separate feed. You can go up to about 375'+/- for a 240v/30a cable and circuit. But that's moot.

You will need a licensed electrcian to hook it up but here's how it lays out:
The sensor is the switch for the power to the coil on the three pole contactor. You run 120v to (and through) the sensor to the contactor. This 120v will not only power the sensor but it will also activate the coil on the contactor when the sensor is activated by temperature and moisture. You then will have to run three 120v power sources (1 for each zone that you already have) to the three pole contactor. When the sensor is activated, the contactor pulls in and that turns on all three zones. Done!

 

[iceonroof]

Really helpful

Thanks so much for the advice. I'm assuming that the contactor is a mongo relay. I'm old enough to have worked with these a lot for logic and timing circuits before the transistor era.
The cables are definitely on separate circuits. A couple of them started out as GFCIs, but they kept blowing on startup, so I had them put in slower blowing equivalent ground-fault breakers in the fuse box that cost a fortune; I haven't heard the term "GFEP" but I would guess that is what they put in. The first circuit, in its own peripheral box, I assume, is the same, but I'll check. (It would seem that I could walk outside to check, but I'm in my office in Denver, and the home is in the mountains, 1.5 hours away.)
In bed, last night, I sort of figured out a similar solution, the only problem being that I would need an electrician to interrupt these three circuits near the fuse box, which is the only location at which they converge.
If it's not too much trouble, and you have the info. at hand, could you suggest brands/models for the sensor and contactor? Don't go to any trouble; I can search on the internet, but there appear to be a lot of options.
Again, thanks so much.

 

[warmsmeallup]

We use any major brand of contactor. They're not really 'mongo' contactors. In the metal box with screw lid it should be mounted in would probably measure about 6" square for wall space +/-.

We use Automated Systems Engineering sensors. Since you have a gutter system, use the DS-8. It has a remote mounted moisture sensor that you can put right in the gutter. We sell them for $325.00 so expect something in that range.

We have used another popular brand in the past that looks similar but had really bad experiences with their service when under warranty. ASE is a great company and very knowledgable. I'm not sure if they will sell direct. You may need to buy from a distributor near you (for convenience).

 

[jeweler]

are there problems with the heat tape and gutter leaf guards

Was it warmsmeallup who mentioned a problem with using the electric tape in the gutters when there are leaf guards in place? I also live in the hills in Colorado (at 8500') and have gutter icing. I put some basic electric heat tape in the gutters after having a problem where they filled up with ice. This resolved the problem as long as each time it snows I rake the snow off the eaves and then out of the gutter. It was considering installing the leaf guards or gutter helmet or whatever this summer. Then I can more easily pull the snow off the eaves without filling the gutters with the snow. I was thinking the water that runs down the roof as the snow melts would then just fall into the gutters and run off as usual. If the water froze in the gutter then I could plug in the heat tape that is already in the gutter.

What is the fallacy in this seemingly simple solution?

Thanks

 

[AltaJoe]

I have a question....perhaps warmsmellup can help.

I'm in Omaha, Nebraska. The climate is similar to Clifton Park :wink:

The only ice problem I have is in a "valley". This winter, which was one of the worst on record I had a huge ice buildup in the valley and it resulted in some water entering the house. I'm looking for a solution.

Here are some

1) It is on the north side of the house and gets absolutely no sun.

2) It is not a normal "valley". One side is a very steep slope and the other side of the "valley" is a vertical exterior side wall.

3) The "Valley" is narrow, 6" at the bottom and widens to over 24" at the top.

4) The top of the "valley" also ends at a vertical wall.

5) Snow often packs into the valley. This year is was up to 24" deep.

6) During most of the winter, temperatures in the shade rarely get above 32 degrees and single digits / teens are normal. This year we had over a dozen days below zero at night.

So, would a Self-regulating heat cable work? Would I need a "heavy duty" one? Any better solutions?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[warmsmeallup]

AltaJoe:
I think I can picture what you mean but let's be sure. Can you either post or email me a digital picture of the valley? You know the saying about what a pictures' worth?!

russell@comfortradiant.com

 

[AltaJoe]

Just sent 2 shots with "Omaha" in the subject line.

Thanks.

 

[mlleelise]

We just paid $1200 to a roofing company to install heat tape on the roof, in the gutters, and down the downspouts. As the installers were leaving, they told me that there was only enough heat tape to go 1/2 way down each downspout. He assured me that was plenty - and guaranteed that the no ice would form in the spout. However, everything I have read says that the tape should go the enitre length of the downspout - and out the end.
Should I make a big deal about this and make them fix it by installing enough tape sufficient to do the job properly (running the entire length of the downspouts) - or is it fine the way it is??
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!