Another question. How big of a job would it be to just replace that vent/drain pipe with pvc? Where would I start?

 

You got an ugly one there! I think you're dealing with a copper drain, not cast iron. The nail needs to come out and a repair made. Can you see a cast iron hub at floor level or slightly below? That pipe ties into the 4" below slab so there has to be a transition from cast to copper. That's where you make the repair. Once you find that spot, clean out the cast iron hub and use plastic from there. Pull out all the copper drain you can since you have the wall open. (recycle it for good cash)
You mentioned a future second floor sink- it should tie in below the tee that serves the basement lav- above the tee is the vent and you shouldn't wet vent 2 floors, let alone on that small of pipe. Hope that helps.

 

So I'm assuming that means busting up the slab that is there to find this junction point? Once I find it and pull it all out of there, is there a pvc to cast iron coupling or sleeve that I need to use?

 

I hate working with copper drains. The OD is all screwed up.



I once pulled out a copper vent that was tied into a 3" stack which I assumed was the vent for the mainline. It was tied in with an upside down wye which is one way to do it (not wrong) except that the 3" was actually a toilet drain, not a vent. You can imagine what I found in that vent.

Anyway :

The other option for changing the transition is to use a "Fernco Do-nut" You pull all the lead and pipe out of the cast iron hub, slide the donut over your pvc or abs, and hammer the donut into the fitting. Makes a nice tight rubber seal and a clean transition without having to cut any cast iron out.

 

I guess I'll know better what my next step should be once I open up the floor and see what I've got.

 

If you know how to solder the easiest way to fix it is to pull the screw out and solder a small copper patch over the hole. It should last forever. No digging, no fittings, no PVC.

 

So just clean it up and sweat a patch on? that seems pretty easy.

 

I guess you COULD do that. To make it work properly, you'd need something the right size, which would be a piece of a fitting.


Keep in mind that getting to the pipe underneath may not be necessary, but copper doesn't last as long below grade. It wouldn't hurt to pull it out if you only have to remove a short section of pipe to replace it.

Besides, then you can upsize it which will make it less likely to clog, and give you the flexibility to add another fixture to that part of the line later if need be.

 

The patch would be above slab albeit below grade since its in the basement.

Since my plan is to add a small bar sink to that drain/vent line, I would have to cut out a section anyway. Does it make sense to cut the pipe by the floor, take out a 3-4' section and replace it with PVC? I dont even know if that is allowed by code. I can do the work but knowing what work is correct and what will last is where I am lacking. If this is doable what types of transition fittings would I need?

 

The answer in my code would be : "You need a 2" drain for a bar sink"


The second problem you run into would be depending on where and how you cut in your fittings, you COULD possibly be "wet venting" one of the fixtures, which also requires the wet vented section to be upsized one pipe size larger than the minimum required drain. That's if wet venting is allowed in your area, and what the specific rules are for it.

 

The answer in my code would be : "You need a 2" drain for a bar sink"

The second problem you run into would be depending on where and how you cut in your fittings, you COULD possibly be "wet venting" one of the fixtures, which also requires the wet vented section to be upsized one pipe size larger than the minimum required drain. That's if wet venting is allowed in your area, and what the specific rules are for it.

Whew! Thats a lot of info. Im no plumber but it looks like i have a lot more research to do.

 

Did you already start?

1. Take your sawsall and cuto off the sole plate right next to the stud to the left. Hint Flip the blade over and back cut. Then cut out the sole plate to the right, so you can expose as much of the pipe as possible. Then light it up and take some better close up pictures with your camera set to Macro. If the bell into which the copper pipe is inserted is not flush with the concrete floor, do not try to chip out concrete, you will break the cast Iron, and then you will be in it deep. Everything depends on how much pipe you have above floor before you hit the hole in the pipe. Do this, then send more pictures. You can also cut out that sole plate with a multi tool if you have one.

 

Sweet. I've been wanting to cut something using my sawzall blade backwards! I'll get those pics done tonight and send them on. Thanks for the help.

 

Ok here's your close up

 

Yep....that is a nail in your vent pipe alright.

Me....personally.....I would pull out the nail....clean away all the crud and dirt....cut a piece of copper pipe so that its just a tad over 1/2 round....form it so that it's a nice snug fit over the outside.....sweat it on.

That or use the rubber thing noted above.

 

Wow

Man you did a great job! Now here is what I would do:
Wear Safety Glasses, and leather gloves for all of this.

Cut the copper pipe about 3/4 of an inch above that rim that you see there. That is the bell from the CI Pipe. Then cut out the copper pipe about a foot above the T above, where the vent goes up. Cut up high enough so you can get your Sawsall in there vertically.

With a fine tooth hack saw blade in your sawsall, make two vertical cuts in the copper pipe on the inside, cutting back toward you. Now Bang the remaining piece inward with a screwdriver or cold chisel and take it out with needle nosed pliers. Take your needle nose pliers and roll the remaining pipe in on itself, and take it out.

Wire wheel all the masonry snots away from the bell till it's clean. Now put a large hose clamp on the outside of the top rim of the cast Iron pipe and snug it up. This will help to keep you from cracking off the lip

There should be lead packing there with the old oakum under it. With a small cold chisel held with the blade vertical hit down at an angle and bend the lead ring in toward the middle of the pipe. Work it out with the pliers. Take it out.

With a thin blade flat tip screwdriver, peel out the old oakum. With a cup type wire wheel clean the heck out of the inside of the bell. Shop Vac out the pipe. The hard part is done.

The best way to put it back is to use a Fernco Donut. You can get these at a good plumbing supply. The inside should fit a 1-1/2 inch DWV PVC Pipe the outside should fit into the bell.

​

Coat the outside with dish soap and tap it in to the bell with a mallet and a block of wood. Measure and cut a piece of PVC Pipe to plumb between the down sweep leg of the sanitary T, and the donut. Chamfer the outer edge of the pipe, debur the inner, and put a hose clamp on the pipe the distance that you want it to enter into the Donut. (The full thickness of the donut) Apply soap, and tap it in to the donut.


Leave the hose clamp there till all the rest of the plumbing is glued up. The T that goes in just above the CI Bell should be a sanitary T with a long turn sweep turned down.


You can tie the PVC to the copper with a 1-1/2 inch fernco coupling. (I show a 2 inch, you need 1.5 inch)Dont use a no-hub coupling here.

​

 

Hold on Brock

Hi Brock, I just looked at that nail again, and on second view, that does not look like a bell, it looks like it may be a brass coupling. In this case, you are probably going to have to clean the outside of the pipe really good just above the coupling, cut the pipe so that you have just enough to enter a copper coupling right up to the other one, and half way into the pipe (Ask for a couple of slip couplings, they dont have the stop ring in the middle) You will need an emory roll to really polish the pipe and inside of the couplings, solder, tinning flux and a brush. You will probably need Mapp Gas to have enough heat for 1.5 inch pipe. Solder in the couplings. That copper has to be really shinny clean, and fully fluxed.

If you are not comfy with this call in a licensed plumber. All that I said previously wont work here. Maybe someone else can use it sometime.

 

worst possible place

Darn, that nail is in the worst possible place, but then I guess you knew that.

 

Darn, that nail is in the worst possible place, but then I guess you knew that.

Yes sir. So should i worry about the sewer gas possibly igniting?

 

Sewer gas

Hi Brock,

Last night I had one last thought. You may be able to simply pull out that nail, clean up that pipe really good, drill the hole to 1/8 inch and then put in a fluxed copper pop rivet with a copper or brass mandrel. Pop it in then solder over it. That is the easiest, cheapest thing you can do and it just might work fine. The key here is clean, very clean, and fluxed with tinning flux that has solder paste mixed right in. It is critical that you use a copper pop rivet with a copper or brass mandrel so it tins off. Then top it with solder as it cools. You can get these at a good roofing supply. If you cant find any let me know, and I will track a couple down for you.

Im sorry for the first post, I was thinking we had a bell to work with. I have done quite a few as I described. I have also used a special PVC adapter they make with oakum and lead wool, and never had a problem with that way either but the donut is simpler. Yours is a special case. A real B***h

Im sure I have gotten some laughs from others that suggested soldering a patch, but I think the rivet is really the way to go in this case.

 

Only thing I don't like about the rivet is that it may protrude into the pipe. Since that appears to be the drain for a lavatory, it'll be a problem area for hair to hang up on.

 

Protrude

Yeah I agree Alan, but a rivet will only protrude into the pipe about 1/4 inch. It could be a problem, if a lot of hair goes down that pipe, but I think its worth the risk. If that pipe has not clogged with that nail in it, which must go in at least a half inch, chances are it won't with a rivet. I guess he could hammer a penny to the shape of the pipe, clean it and the pipe up real good, flux them and hold it in place with a hose clamp and sweat it on there. That would probably work too.

But I do agree with your logic.

 

Yeah I agree Alan, but a rivet will only protrude into the pipe about 1/4 inch. It could be a problem, if a lot of hair goes down that pipe, but I think its worth the risk. If that pipe has not clogged with that nail in it, which must go in at least a half inch, chances are it won't with a rivet. I guess he could hammer a penny to the shape of the pipe, clean it and the pipe up real good, flux them and hold it in place with a hose clamp and sweat it on there. That would probably work too.

But I do agree with your logic.

I think a pop rivet is probably a pretty decent idea anything to seal up that hole is going to work. the good thing is that drain only services 3 sinks. the only hair going down the drain is from shaving and those hairs are pretty small

 

The Penny

The penny or the rivet? Go with the rivet if that nail has not caused you any trouble, then a rivet wont either, but Alans point is well taken. Theres a good chance that if you clean up that pipe real good, install the rivet, and sweat it in your problems are over. Well, at least this problem.

 

The penny or the rivet? Go with the rivet if that nail has not caused you any trouble, then a rivet wont either, but Alans point is well taken. Theres a good chance that if you clean up that pipe real good, install the rivet, and sweat it in your problems are over. Well, at least this problem.

Fair. This is a much smaller problem than all the glue they put down for the forest green carpet!

So another question.

If pulling the nail out, drilling a hole, putting in a rivet and sweating solder over the top will most likely counteract the inherent nature of water wanting to stop falling with gravity and take a sharp turn horizontally, then why dont I just leave the nail in?

I was cleaning it up with my steel brush a little last night and accidentally hit it a couple times. Its in there pretty good.

Is the drywall nail made of a material that does not jive with the copper. Metallurgically speaking.

 

You generally can't loosen a rivet, but you can easily loosen a nail. Like you mentioned its good practice to use two compatible metals (ie brass & copper) whenever possible.

I'd want to be 100% sure it was a water-tight fix if for some reason your house trap gets cloged and water backs up above the patch, so I agree with installing a copper patch by solder. If using a rivet it might loosen over a long time from continuous falling "debris" hitting it unless you use a low profile rivet.

 

I think you can buy copper rivets. Use one of them then hit it real quick with a drop of solder.

 

Is there some type of patch I can use if I pull out the nail?

http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-waterweld/

 

The bigger problem with leaving the nail in is that it will rust out, and then you are left with an open hole.

 

So...were sure it's copper? Pull out the nail and clean up the hole. It will be a lot easier to decide what to do after that is done. It may be possible to just drill it out for a small brass plug. You may be able to drill and tap and be done with it....depends on how thick the pipe is at that point.

 

Yeah its Copper for sure.