Did they happen to have a copy of their electrician's license? Lots of "non-electrician installer people" have lots of "standard practices" which are Code violations. Not least, they tend not to "keep up with Code revisions", I bet they don't even own a torque screwdriver.


As far as GFCI breaker, there is no requirement for a GFCI within 6' of the hot tub. There's a requirement for a disconnect near the hot tub. The GFCI can be anywhere -- and you are better off having it in the main panel (far from the hot tub) so that ALL wiring near the hot tub is protected. That protects you from certain failures that could electrocute a family member or guest.

As far as neutrals, what is true is that all neutrals in the hot tub subpanel need to be brought together, and isolated from grounding. Really the best way is a separate ground and neutral bar. That will be most obvious to "the next guy" who is adding a circuit there. This is no place to fool around; neutral-ground blunders leave a razor-thin margin for error before the grounding starts shocking people.

Accidents are like multiple layers of swiss cheese... sometimes, all the holes line up and you have an accident. Neutral-ground mishandling or non-Code "industry practices" remove a layer or two. It's not instantly fatal, so they don't see immediate effect - but it raises the chance of combining with another fault to kill you.

 

The neutral going to the tub should be connected the neutral terminal of the breaker, not the neutral bar. The neutral from the main panel goes to the neutral bar along with the neutral pigtail from the breaker.

 

Hmmm. A reasonable thought. Though, I do not remember this breaker having a neutral terminal. I may have to review this to be sure. Thanks.

 

Hi, there should be an owner manual with that Hot Tub, that’s how it should be wired, this link shows the proper connections, for one mfg.

https://www.spadepot.com/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm

 

You're confused. The thing that has to be within sight of the tub and six feet away is NOT the GFCI, but rather the emergency stop. This isn't required in a residential situation. If you're not in your own home you've got no business mucking with spa wiring.

What is required is that the breaker be within sight (no minimum distance) of where you work on the equipment.

If the equipment USES the neutral wire, it needs to go to the load neutral on the GFCI or else it will trip.

I'm confused as to why any wire runs straight from the main panel to the spa.

 

No wire runs straight from the panel to the spa.
And the main panel is in a sun room on the opposite side of the house. And the existing breaker is not GFCI. So a Spa Box with a GFCI breaker within eyesight of the spa is appropriate.

 

The disconnect needs to be either 5 or 6 foot from the tub.

 

No, it does not. The maintenance disconnect only needs to be in sight of the servicing technician or lockable like any other maintenance disconnect.

You're confusing the rule for the emergency motor stop (Art. 680.41)
A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provides power to the recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot tub. This requirement shall not apply to one-family dwellings.

 

I don't trust gfci breakers outside in the elements. It also means the line side (not gfci protected) is in the outdoor box too.

Run a cheap/basic disconnect local to the hot tub.

 

I'm trying to figure out how a neutral fits into a 220v circuit.

 

The underwater light in the tub is usually 120V.

 

Many hot tubs are 120/240 volt.

 

The underwater lights in almost all hot tubs made in the past ten years are low voltage leds.

But anyway, it's neither here nor there. If the tub has a neutral connection, you'd better connect it to a load neutral on the GFCI or risk it righfully tripping.

 

I appreciate all the feedback, but I don't think the responses offered so far address my question.

The neutral does go to the spa. And the neutral does go to the gfci disconnect near the spa. And the neutral does go to the panel. The are all spliced together in a Jbox under a polaris lug.
And the hot tub is on the opposite side of the house as the main panel, two full left corners and a door away, probably 120 feet total from the spa.
The breaker in the panel is not GFCI, so the installation of a spa box with an included GFCI breaker nearer (but not too near, as pointed out) the spa is appropriate.

My question is regarding the hot tub installers claim that my installation wouldn't work when his does when, as far as I can tell, they are electrically equivalent.
The only differences between the two are that my neutral wires are tied together at the Jbox while his are tied together at the spa box. But in both situations, they're tied together somewhere.
And that his installation required 40' more of wire.

Thanks,
Kelly

 

I appreciate all the feedback, but I don't think the responses offered so far address my question.

The neutral does go to the spa. And the neutral does go to the gfci disconnect near the spa. And the neutral does go to the panel. The are all spliced together in a Jbox under a polaris lug.
And the hot tub is on the opposite side of the house as the main panel, two full left corners and a door away, probably 120 feet total from the spa.
The breaker in the panel is not GFCI, so the installation of a spa box with an included GFCI breaker nearer (but not too near, as pointed out) the spa is appropriate.

My question is regarding the hot tub installers claim that my installation wouldn't work when his does when, as far as I can tell, they are electrically equivalent.
The only differences between the two are that my neutral wires are tied together at the Jbox while his are tied together at the spa box. But in both situations, they're tied together somewhere.
And that his installation required 40' more of wire.

Thanks,
Kelly

Most 2 Poles GFCI Breaker has 3 screw to accept wire and a pigtail. The pigtail must be connected with the wire of your service panel and, usually, nothing else. If you serve only the SPA, connect the PIGTAIL to the White Wire from the service panel with a wire nut.

On the breaker screw row, one will said Load Neutral. This one must be connected with the WHITE SPA feed wire and generally, nothing else.

The others 2 screw are for the Black and Red.

All the ground might be tight together or connected on a separate bus bar. Don't put any neutral with the busbar.

--- You third electric wire.
Can we call it a second load wire??
Well, it depends on how you wire it. Is it for 220V or for 110V.

If this third cable is connected directly to the feed wire from the panel wire, its white must be with the same feed wire from the panel (With the pigtail too). This will be a good connection to feed a GFCI outlet only.

If the Black/Red(optional) of the third wire are connected on the "Load side" of the GFCI, the white must be connected on the Load Neutral of the GFCI Breaker. That will be a highly desirable method if the 3 wire load does not have a GFCI protection.

 

NO NO NO. All the neutrals should NOT be connected together. First off, you never connect the neutrals of multiple circuits together other than at the origination point. Second, on circuits with a GFCI, any neutral on the load side needs to be connected to the GFCI load neutral connection AND TO NOTHING ELSE.

 

Hi, what is the Spar box? Where is the Hot line terminated, post a drawing of what you have there, from the “J” box to it would seem you should be going to this Spar box if it has the controls for the Hot Tub, Hots and neutrals should remain in the same conduit

 

Sorry, I meant "Spa Box". It's just a plastic (in this case) electrical box that comes with the gfci breaker installed along with a neutral bar and ground bar. But there are no controls here other than the disconnecting means for the hot tub itself.

 

This is how you need to install the system. The main wire from the panel should go into a disconnect. Terminate the wire on the lugs than install the gfci breaker in the disconnect. The wire from the tub goes onto the load neutral. Than the load wires go to the breaker. Ps you should not be wiring any devices with water involved you will kill someone or your self. Call a LC and have it done right

 

But the hot tub installer rolls up and insists on a SEPARATE wire from the Spa Box to the tub. So now we essentially have two neutral wires, one from the main panel to the Spa Box and the other from the Spa Box to the Tub, both spliced separately (so we have two separate pairs of white wires under wire nuts) in the Jbox, but both landing on the neutral bar in the Spa Box.

The installer insists that while this is electrically equivalent to what we had, it's required to make the spa operate. He also told the homeowner that "unless you install hot tubs, you probably don't know about this wiring method".

Just a wild guess...
I don't know of the gauge of wire you are speaking but because there is a neutral involved you have 120volt ability at the tub as well as 240.... but you actually have TWO independent 120volt circuits out to the tub so there is the ability to DOUBLE load the neutral.

If for example your 240v supply is breakered at 15 amps then obviously you can only feed a 240v circuit to a max of 15 amps before the breaker shuts you down. If on the other hand you include a neutral and run everything at 120 volts now you have the ability to pull 30 amps.... twice the amperage (the combination of the two legs operating at 120v each). In other words your neutral must be able to effectively handle twice the amperage that your breakers denote.

I maybe completely off base.... but that's the only thing I can think of.

 

Thanks.
I'm running #6awgs, across the board for a 50 amp breaker.
So you're thinking like parallel neutrals. hmmm...

 

.

This is exactly the reason you should not be wiring a hot tub yourself. Your going to kill someone just call an electrician.

Young Spark I agree 100% with you on this.


Kelly Durfey:

I looked closer at this thread you created and a few other ones in reference to either a pool or hot tub that you are doing electrical work on. This thread you mentioned "home owner" which tells me it is not your home. Another thread you mention you are helping a friend and then later in the thread mention "home owner" again.

My impression is from what I have read is that you are doing electrical work on things that you should not even be touching since they are not yours to start with.

Seeing what you are working on - swimming pools and spas - of which all involved water and then asking simple basic questions about GFCIs etc is really starting to frighten me.

If I were you I would immediately stop working on these pools and spas. You really don't seem to understand how easy it is to kill someone when you mix electricity and water.

Even seasoned electricians know their limits. Not all electricians are qualified to work on pools and spas. One mistake is all it takes for a disaster. Do you really want to take the liability or have something like this on your conscience?

I could be off base here but I don't think I am. Even if you are helping friends the best way you can help your friends is to advise them to hire a licensed electrician that is well versed with pools and spas and to step away.

.

 

JYL that is very confusing. GFCI breaker 2 pole - 120/240v installation - pigtail from the breaker goes to the neutral bar. The corresponding neutral from the load which is presently on the neutral bar is taken off and then put on the GFCI breaker. The two hot wires are also put on the breaker. The screws (3) are marked on the breaker indicating what wire goes where. The entire circuit is now GFCI protected.

 

Good: Now the ground.
All the ground wire must be together but not on the Neutral BAR. If your switch box is like a subpanel, you may need an extra bar. The ground must stay independent until the panel.

 

Within 50' AND clear sight

 

@towerboss, what does your post mean?

 

Means of disconnect shall be 50' or less and within clear sight per NEC.

 

This thread is 3 years old.

 

50’ ?