Drainage plane just means a surface that drains water. So house sheathing, covered with water shedding material, is a drainage plane. It goes side by side with drying gap. My words and forgot what it's called, technically. Drying gap is just an air space. Water can get behind the siding. Water vulnerable siding, cedar, other raw wood, even engineered such as cement siding, need this air gap. Vinyl doesn't and it has built in air space behind it. There are few ways to create the gap/drainage. One I can remember is some kind of mesh. Cheapest would be 1/4" straps, maybe pressure treated lattice can be used though they split too easily. What I see in videos is 1x furring strips. Vinyl needs about 8" nail spacing and corners and channels have their own nailing details. Reading the manuals should give you the details.

 

I agree, no gap needed for aluminum or vinyl siding as water does not get trapped, the house wrap wants to be done with more care when doing vinyl.

 

Thanks!

I have it down to wood or vinyl (eliminated the Hardie and LP).

Making a list of pro's and con's ... including how much work will go into the installation.

I found a supplier last week out of Canada. With the strong US dollar, it is very attractive compared to other options.

Plus it is one of the only suppliers that have the colors I am looking for (don't want light colors ... want to go bold).

Mike

 

The "care" Neal mentions is something I don't see as being done too often and some of the problems come after the wrap is installed. If the wrap gets in the way it gets cut.

Detailing wrap with flashing is also important.

Vinyl has its pluses and minuses but low cost and easy to install and repair are big on the list.

Bud

 

Honestly, I started out last year saying "Never Vinyl"

I was convinced LP board and batten was the way to go ... 16 ft pieces ...should be esay,

Then I got a quote .... over $25K for pre finished ... OUCH.

So I looked at Hardie ... then wood ... then .....

I looked at "skipping" steps and using no sheathing ...or foam for sheathing ... or ....

You guys (I think Neal has answered every post I put up) have walked me through every idea ... pro's and con's

With building materials still at record highs and a limited budget .... vinyl looks better and better.

And now that I don't even need to build a drainage plane like I would need to do with wood siding, it looks even better.

Still thinking about the bottom 8" - 12".

I am leaning towards Neals idea of blue skin or Grace for say the first 18" (right down onto the concrete).

Neil suggested Galvanized steel over it. I still don't want to see shiny steel so I am still leaning toward cement board over that. Either parge over it or maybe think brick (if I can fit it into the budget).

Bottom would be open to let water drain ... flashing on top to stop water getting it ... not sure if I will need a drain plane (small gap say 1/4 - 1/2") on such a small space especial since I would have blue skin behind it.

Just FYI ... vinyl looks like it will be about $10K .... vinyl siding is less then the price of wood siding ... and I have not even figured in paint or stain the the labor.

Thanks so much again !!!!!!!!!

Mike

 

Honestly, I started out last year saying "Never Vinyl"

I was convinced LP board and batten was the way to go ... 16 ft pieces ...should be esay,

Then I got a quote .... over $25K for pre finished ... OUCH.

So I looked at Hardie ... then wood ... then .....

I looked at "skipping" steps and using no sheathing ...or foam for sheathing ... or ....

You guys (I think Neal has answered every post I put up) have walked me through every idea ... pro's and con's

With building materials still at record highs and a limited budget .... vinyl looks better and better.

And now that I don't even need to build a drainage plane like I would need to do with wood siding, it looks even better.

Still thinking about the bottom 8" - 12".

I am leaning towards Neals idea of blue skin or Grace for say the first 18" (right down onto the concrete).

Neil suggested Galvanized steel over it. I still don't want to see shiny steel so I am still leaning toward cement board over that. Either parge over it or maybe think brick (if I can fit it into the budget).

Bottom would be open to let water drain ... flashing on top to stop water getting it ... not sure if I will need a drain plane (small gap say 1/4 - 1/2") on such a small space especial since I would have blue skin behind it.

Just FYI ... vinyl looks like it will be about $10K .... vinyl siding is less then the price of wood siding ... and I have not even figured in paint or stain the the labor.

Thanks so much again !!!!!!!!!

Mike

The peal and stick only needs to be on 1" of concrete and you could hide it with the starter coarse

 

Cement board should not be used if it is ground contact . Need to maintain 1-2 inches clearance . Only if it is rated for subgrade ,would this not apply. Hope your project goes well.

 

But then the argument comes back to needing mechanical protection from say a weed trimmer.

Attached is a drawing of what I have right now.

The soil is just right at the sloping concrete (about 2" below the pad).

From what I can see, the blue skin and Grace (both peel and stick products) are self sealing.

If I do as you say and use either on the bottom for lets say 18", then could I just not cut he cement board into say 12" strips x 5 ft long and screw them directly to the wall. They would be at least 2" from the ground. Put z flashing on top and start the vinyl siding there.

I can either parge the cement board or as I said, if I find a few extra $'s (about $5 per sq ft) stick on some thin brick.

I am debating if I would need a drainage plane behind this ... it is only 12" .. bottom would be open ... blue skin behind ... does in need to breath?

Mike

 

But then the argument comes back to needing mechanical protection from say a weed trimmer.

Attached is a drawing of what I have right now.

The soil is just right at the sloping concrete (about 2" below the pad).

From what I can see, the blue skin and Grace (both peel and stick products) are self sealing.

If I do as you say and use either on the bottom for lets say 18", then could I just not cut he cement board into say 12" strips x 5 ft long and screw them directly to the wall. They would be at least 2" from the ground. Put z flashing on top and start the vinyl siding there.

I can either parge the cement board or as I said, if I find a few extra $'s (about $5 per sq ft) stick on some thin brick.

I am debating if I would need a drainage plane behind this ... it is only 12" .. bottom would be open ... blue skin behind ... does in need to breath?

Mike

Is what I marked red all sheet metal now?

 

No, it is surface bond cement over expanded metal.

 

I would just do a 6 or 8 " peel and stick down onto that and hide it with a head flashing just like a shed roof up to a wall.

 

I get the peal and stick ... and I think what you are saying is to use the angled part of the flashing to go over the angled part of the cement. Is that correct?

But then If I start the siding right above the pad, there is no mechanical protection for the siding.

I can't seem to find a picture of the finished grade but it is right up to the edge of the angle. Even the edge of the flashing might be in the dirt.

 

Every drawing I find just shows protective cover with out a name.
We did it when I was kid with 1/2 asbestos cement board that stood up well but i doubt you could find that.

 

Dark colors will fade that's more noticeable than light. I saw some videos of pro cleaning the vinyl to restore the color but not sure how?
I don't see the need for perimeter drain pipe? Or it should be at the edge of the buried insulation which is another drainage plane. For the future?
If lumber wall on the edge of the slab, blueskin (what kind of adhesive?) though I think i'd use grace ice shield (if cheaper though it uses asphalt adhesive). Grace has tarpaper replacement that's without the gravel, so thinner. But asphalt adhesive must not touch the foam or other plastics. I think any will do (with caveat) because they also must be covered with more robust material, such as sheetmetal. You have used a cementious coating? Though cementious, I would not believe it will last some decades. No experience with it and just my old school bias, maybe.
If mine, i would cover with blue skin (as long as not asphalt adhesive) up to about 16" of the wood wall (splash and moisture/vapor), then bent sheetmetal that covers at least 9-10" of the wall, then side. Perimeter of the slab would be trenched, bottom lined with ice shield (roll roofing may be cheaper) and filled with gravel that would drain to daylight or a drywell kind of pit. My idea and even now not sure about how perimeter drain should be done. If designed by architect, how is the drain pipe justified/work?

 

The perimeter drain was kind of an after thought. Long story ... after the pad was poured I did some homework in a hurry and realized I needed some type of freeze protection. The guys who convinced me to go with the pad say "of course" ... as if they know what they were doing ...put some foam down around the bottom of the ditch ... pushed some up against the wall and back filled. I asked how were were going to finish off the exposed foam ... they suggested things like a "spray" on rubber coating ... or bent metal ...or something we could figure out later.

A few months later, I had foam "floating" out of the holes! It just literally floated up and out.

So I had some workers dig again around the edge and put the foam in place and back fill tighter (thought maybe the dirt just wasn't tight against the foam).

OK ... most stayed ... some floated up again.

House to a few years to build.

By then, I had it the foam with the weed eater and the mower ... huge chunks missing .... !00% damaged.

So ... I dug it all up .... leveled the bottom of the trench (some of the foam at the bottom was sloped back toward the building) ... ground the flashing from the forms off the concrete ... stuck the foam on ... put on the expanded metal .. the put on the surface bond cement (two coats).

I did call the cement company and make sure I was using the correct cement. The said this should last my lifetime plus.

Then, thinking about the foam floating, I decide for a few extra $'s why not put the perimeter drain.

A but of an final thought .... I have in the back of my mind that I may one day I could did up the dirt around the building and put crushed stone there .... it could drain straight down to the drain (in most places there is only 4 - 6 " of dirt cover over the stone now).

Grace is much more popular here than Blueskin. I used it all over the house (roof edge ... window pans ... flashing ...)

I am hoping water will not be a huge issue .... I did slope the land away from the pad where I could and put a swale where I had too.

Just sealing down the 2 x 6 PT sill to the concrete might be good enough (sill seal .... mastic caulk ... ???? ... PT to concrete).

I just want to make sure water does not run down the wall and then weep toward / under the sill.

Plus I want some kind of mechanical protection for the first say 12" ... I know I will tear up some siding if it comes right down to grade.

This is why I am thinking ... put the wall either right on the edge or maybe even hand it over say just 1/2"

Put some kind of peel and stick (grace) sill to 18" up (might need flashing at bottom so water does not weep backward toward the sill ... or run the Grace long to go down to the cement).

Then screw on cement board ... don't seal the bottom (just in case water does somehow get behind even thought is should not).

Z flash the top ... start siding.

I could parge the cement board ...or use thin brick on it ... or ?

That is at least my present thinking ... drawing up multiple options right now.

Thanks .... Mike