[njmurvin]

My 40 year old Lennox 5 ton split system finally bit the dust. I received a replacement proposal from a local contractor referred from a family friend. He's proposing a Bryant 5 ton 15 SEER replacement system (80% 90K BTU single stage furnace, coil, and single stage condenser). The install includes furnace, coil, plenums,furnace stands, ISO pads, reroute PVC drain, flue vent, gas, low voltage and electrical as needed, and installing the new condenser in the existing location. He's also replacing ducts that are falling apart as needed, enlarging return duct, adding a return duct in primary bedroom and changing stamped grilles to new AC White Bar type grilles. Also, he's changing 3 return grilles to filter type grilles so I don't have to climb into the attic to change filters. I think his quoted price is fair at $14,150. However, I have a couple of concerns:

1) Bryant units seem to have a decent reputation. As I understand it, they are made by Carrier. However, I also have read that the warranty is for parts only. I haven't discussed this with the contractor yet. If this is true, is this common practice in the industry?

2) If I want him to pull permits, he will charge an additional $1,275 for permits and EPA testing. If California requires permits for HVAC replacement (which is my understanding), I'm surprised a licensed contractor (which he is) would even propose doing the work without one. Is it worth it or necessary for me to spend the extra $1,275 for permits and EPA testing?

 

[karoc524]

That’s lot work and at todays prices seems fair. Part pricing seems outrageous to me but it’s new normal. But I believe that compressor is 10 yr warranty and heat exchanger is maybe 10 yr warranty. Im not sure on warranty, it’s best to ask and ask about fan motors. Bryant? In my days running roads that was unit that I prefer, second is Rheem/ Rudd. Trane is also good, but really what matters is guys doing install and startup. Are they sub contractors or do they actually work for company. Either way get another bid and ask about parts/labor warranty. As far permits, it’s pain for company, we never had pull permits unless in city, it didn’t change quality of work. So if you need that 1200.00 peace of mind go for it. Good luck, having cool house is nice

 

[rndiy]

1) The warranty language I have seen is for components only. The is clearly called out in the warranty document. The installer may provide labor warranty.
2) It does sound odd the permitting and EPA testing was a separate quote. Makes me think this is a small or one-man outfit with sub-contractors pulled together as needed. I would go for that extra cost so the installer is held responsible. I would make sure to get all paperwork including final inspection reports etc.,

I didn't see start-up / commissioning checklist (for furnace and A/C) included in the items listed in your post. As @karoc524 suggested, I would make sure it is included and signed off by you and the installer before he is gone. Temperature rise, static pressure, delta T and several other measurements should be documented at start up. The installation manual for your furnace should have one.

As suggested, it may be worthwhile to get another quote. Replacing or installing new ductwork in an existing house is labor intensive. That may be a significant part of the quote you have.

 

[njmurvin]

Thanks for the replies. I have reached out to the installer to find out if they provide a labor warranty, use sub-contractors and if they provide a start-up/commissioning checklist.

Another installer (whom I've known for years) that I talked to this morning suggested that I try to limp my system (a ~$500 blower motor in the condenser unit would probably do that) until fall (Sept/Oct) when my options will be better. He felt that manufacturers may be discounting R410 systems in light of the change in refrigerants in 2025 (as they did when winding down R22). Add that to the fact that a July heat wave is probably the worst possible time to be changing out a system and that installers may not do their best work in a 130deg attic. While I don't like the idea of spending $500 on a 40 year old system, he promised that he could save me that much and quite a bit more by waiting. Of course, then I risk some other failure of my existing system which would literally blow up this strategy. Thoughts on this approach?

 

[njmurvin]

I received a prompt response from the contractor who made the proposal.

Regarding warranty, they said Bryant provides 10 years warranty on parts. The installer provides 1 year labor on the installation.

Regarding subs, they do all their own work. Their crews have been with them for years. They do not use sub-contractors.

Regarding permits, They said, "Permits and EPA are up to you - we do everything according to code regardless."

Regarding start-up checklist, they said, "We do not do a “start up form -We do however go over the installation with you so you know how the system works properly." They did not define "properly".

 

[user_12345a]

How do you know 5 ton and 80 000 btu is right?
Did the 5 ton system run continuously in extreme heat or cycle? (keeping in mind there is capacity reduction as old compressor ages)
If it cycled on and off in extremes, off for significant amounts of time, the 5 ton is probably oversized.

Why only a single stage furnace? 2-stage equivalent is not much more $$ at all.

Should do a load calculation to see how much cooling/heat house really needs.

 

[Maxbuild]

With no permit or inspection you own the performance of the system. Is the manufacturer warranty even valid if not inspected? Could cause you problems.
If something fails or does not work right what is your recourse? Tough to invoke a lien or claim if you don't follow all the steps.

RE changing refrigerants... yes likely to get a great deal this winter or next spring... if you can get someone to install them.
I bought and self-installed four minisplits during the R22 phaseout for a song.

 

[user_12345a]

With no permit or inspection you own the performance of the system. Is the manufacturer warranty even valid if not inspected? Could cause you problems.
If something fails or does not work right what is your recourse? Tough to invoke a lien or claim if you don't follow all the steps.

RE changing refrigerants... yes likely to get a great deal this winter or next spring... if you can get someone to install them.
I bought and self-installed four minisplits during the R22 phaseout for a song.

Manufacturer's warranty has nothing to do with local permit/inspection. Many places do not require permits for a change-out at all.

It does have to be installed by qualified technician though.

 

[SLSTech]

First you need a Manual J run at minimum or does your current system run non-stop on the hottest day of the year & vice versa for the winter. If it doesn't then your system is oversized. I would also point out changing a lower efficient furnace for a higher efficient one means you need a lower BTU unit. Shoot 90K is overkill for my place in Illinois & I would dare say many places in the country
I would also suggest reading this if you are in Cali - Mandatory HERS Requirement - Where Do I Start? because as I read it, no they are not doing everything per code