[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Hi friends....

I have a couple of old Moen 1225 shower valves (20 year old...not posi-temps) that I have to clean and replace the cartridges.

The valve cartridges are extreemly hard to turn on/off right now... but no leaking. I am awaiting a Moen valve puller from E-bay right now.... the plastic valve "socket" with the new cartridges was useless.

The existing valve has no stops so I want to be prepared when I do pull the old cartridges.

I expect the valve cylinders to be pretty crapped up, as I've had to replace about every angle stop valve in this home and the main shutoff gate just twisted off (replaced with a ball valve). The water is pretty hard around here.

My primary question is how best to clean the old valve cylinder before installing the new cartridge.

I'll spray it with some CLR, and all I can think of is to use a 1/2 pipe brush (for cleaning copper before sweating).... but could that steel brush beat-up the brass cylinder... or is that ok... or any better ideas for cleaning/polishing that cylinder.????

Any advice/ideas are appreciated.

TIA

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Bump to todays posts.

Any ideas..... Do you figure that stiff copper cleaning brush could scar the valve seal on brass.

Any other ideas how to clean that valve up.

 

[Yodaman]

Hey Mtn man, as a machinist (many years ago) we would clean small bore holes using a small wooden dowel and a little emery cloth. Use a dowel a little smaller than the hole, make a saw cut longitudinally on one end about 3/4 long. Tear off some emery cloth (maybe 150-220 grit) 3/4 wide by a couple inches long. Insert the center of the cloth into the saw cut, chuck the dowel into a drill. Should clean it up in short order.

I am currently rebuilding an old Delta 3 handle shower valve that will likely need the same treatment.

Good luck

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Yoda..... Thanks....

Good idea.... I'll try it...

Curiosity....By the way, would you know if a copper fitting/cleaning brush would scar up a brass cartridge socket..... it's a pretty stiff steel brush.

Isn't brass softer than copper....?????

Best

 

[Yodaman]

No, brass is harder than copper

 

[Yodaman]

I found this hardness chart for different mat'l, I was surprised, brass is about the same hardness as low carbon steel.
http://www.drill-hq.com/2011/11/hardness-scale-for-various-materials/


one of the valve body ports I cleaned this afternoon with the new spring and seat installed

View attachment 373650

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Would I conclude that a stiff metal 1/2" brush (for sweating/cleaning copper) be all right to use on a brass shower cartridge cylinder..... or would I risk scoreing the cylinder relative to the cartridge seal.

Not sure which method to try first.

Any other ideas/advice.....

(I'm still waitig on the cartridge removal tool in the mail)

TIA

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Bump...

 

[Yodaman]

Would I conclude that a stiff metal 1/2" brush (for sweating/cleaning copper) be all right to use on a brass shower cartridge cylinder..... or would I risk scoreing the cylinder relative to the cartridge seal.

Not sure which method to try first.

Any other ideas/advice.....

(I'm still waitig on the cartridge removal tool in the mail)

TIA

Not sure if your brush would damage the finish or not. If you are starting with a high polish mico finish it might. Although I don't think you will have that kind of finish in a old valve. What concerns me more is using the steel wire. It could leave microscopic size steel deposits in the brass that could start corrosion. Probably over thinking it.

But if you are concerned about heavy scratches, maybe try a hone first.

Something like this. You can get them in every size, grit and mineral imaginable.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002XUL0BS/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Thanks Yoda....

I am probably overthinking it.... and I haven't even pulled the cartridge yet... but with no shower shutoffs, I just want to cover all my options in advance.

I'm sure I've replaced Moens (might have been posi-temps) in the past with absolutely no problems/issues.

But, the hard water around this home (I'm not in Colorado right now) is sorta new to me, and I never had a problem with a cartridge that won't even budge....so I'm concerned with what I might find.

Sorta strange, but I would have thought that this might be a common issue that many of us would have encountered and know the fix...

Guess Eplumber is not around right now or Ghost maybe...

.. the hone is a good idea especially if I could just go down and pick it up and return it if I don't need it....

Thanks again for the ideas ...

 

[Yodaman]

Thanks Yoda....

I am probably overthinking it.... and I haven't even pulled the cartridge yet... but with no shower shutoffs, I just want to cover all my options in advance.

I'm sure I've replaced Moens (might have been posi-temps) in the past with absolutely no problems/issues.

But, the hard water around this home (I'm not in Colorado right now) is sorta new to me, and I never had a problem with a cartridge that won't even budge....so I'm concerned with what I might find.

Sorta strange, but I would have thought that this might be a common issue that many of us would have encountered and know the fix...

Guess Eplumber is not around right now or Ghost maybe...

.. the hone is a good idea especially if I could just go down and pick it up and return it if I don't need it....

Thanks again for the ideas ...

I was referring to myself. I am notorious for complicating simple tasks by thinking to much! Nothing wrong with trying to be prepared though. And yea, I was curious to hear how some of the master plumbers clean them out as well.
Another thought is call Moen tech support. I have always had excellent results with their support team.

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Yoda....

"Great minds" must think alike.....

I called Moen this morning, and just tried them again.... but they have an announcement on, that temporarily their system is down...please try later.

I'll update and let you know...

Best

 

[hkstroud]

I am probably overthinking it....

I agree.

The valve cartridges are extreemly hard to turn on/off right now... but no leaking.

I don't think that is an indicator of mineral deposit build up inside the valve.
To me it indicates a build up of mineral deposits inside the cartridge. The cartridge itself does not move inside the valve. The stem inside the cartridge is what moves and turns.
The difficulty in removing the cartridge is caused by swollen seals (outside the cartridge) between the cartridge and the valve.
I wouldn't be trying to sand inside the valve. At least insert the new cartridge and see if you have a problem before trying to sand or resurface the inside of the valve..

 

[Ghostmaker]

The outer cartridge on Moen does not move. All they have is O ring seals. And some times depending on how one installs control over hot and cold being on left or right.

The movement is usually the internal little cartridge. It moves from right to left cold to warmer and controls amount of water flow and temp.

Do not damage the outer cartridge brass. I would not use a wire brush because of rust.

Make sure you use plumbers grease when you put the new thing back in. DO NOT Damage in any way the Brass of the valve. If you do you get to buy a new one.

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

I agree.


I don't think that is an indicator of mineral deposit build up inside the valve.
To me it indicates a build up of mineral deposits inside the cartridge. The cartridge itself does not move inside the valve. The stem inside the cartridge is what moves and turns.
The difficulty in removing the cartridge is caused by swollen seals (outside the cartridge) between the cartridge and the valve.
I wouldn't be trying to sand inside the valve. At least insert the new cartridge and see if you have a problem before trying to sand or resurface the inside of the valve..

Harold.... Thanks... and I agree.

This is the old 1225 (not posi).... and my exact concern is to NOT damage the valve cylinder.

Clearly th`e stem in the cartridge is F'd up. Takes two hands and a male to pull it out to turn on the water... actually it rotates fine for hot/cold.

Maybe the cylinder is not crapped up, but when I try to rotate the cartridge to remove it... it doesn't budge.

Hopefully that is swollen "O" rings... but I've never run into any that bad.... so I thought that I likely had CLR build up somewhere.

Soon as I get the metal puller (verse the plastic "socket" that comes with the cartridge) and get the cartridge out .... mayble the valve cylyinder is fine.

With no stops, I just need to be prepared.

It must be a common issue in hard water country.... both my downstairs baths are similar. (I'm just new to hard water country).

Thanks again for the advice....

Best

Peter

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

The outer cartridge on Moen does not move. All they have is O ring seals. And some times depending on how one installs control over hot and cold being on left or right.

The movement is usually the internal little cartridge. It moves from right to left cold to warmer and controls amount of water flow and temp. Yep.. that's the valve

Do not damage the outer cartridge brass. I would not use a wire brush because of rust. My concern was mostly scratching...and I alays flush out the line, but I sure don't want rust either

Make sure you use plumbers grease when you put the new thing back in.Alaways do DO NOT Damage in any way the Brass of the valve. If you do you get to buy a new one.(I agree...sorta funny, I wouldn't mind buying a positemp... but the install logistics are most likely a real B-ouch.

Good to see ya back....

and thank ya

Best

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

This is sorta really strange in that I think it is kind of a common problem with the old 1225 and hard water country.

I've obviously researched the internet on it.... and there are numerous video's showing the problem pulling the cartridge.... they basically show that if I don't get lucky with the metal puller twisting the cartridge loose, then go ahead and pull the stem, tap the cartridge with 1/2 thread, make a puller out of a 1/2 bolt... and crank away.

I have taps and that is not a problem.....

But NONE of 5-6 reference mention anything about cleaning the cylinder... maybe it is not necessary... but I just have trouble believing/realizing it is just some swollen O rings.....

Thanks everyone

( Ya know, I'm very much "take responsible care of yourself/family, don't hurt but help others, and I don't need the government telling me what to do"... but right now, I sure wish code would dictate stop valves on all shower installs.

Furthermore, this home has a nice built in corner two person Jacuzzi bath, with corian surronds.... and built in 96, and production built with permitting control etc..... AND THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO ACCESS TO THE JACUZZI PARTS.... shy of a complete tearout.)

Thanks Dr Phil.... I've had a beer or two.

Think I'll make it three.

Best

 

[hkstroud]

Remove the escutcheon and look inside, maybe the valve has integral stops.


Hope springs eternal.

I also suggest that when you install the new cartridge, do it with the valve stem in the open position. When you push the cartridge in you are pushing an air tight plug into a cylinder. When doing that you are compressing the air trapped in the cylinder. Opening the valve stem and letting the air out makes the cartridge seat a lot easier.

 

[MTN REMODEL LLC]

Remove the escutcheon and look inside, maybe the valve has integral stops.


Hope springs eternal.in the human heart.... just not in my shower valve,,,,

I also suggest that when you install the new cartridge, do it with the valve stem in the open position. When you push the cartridge in you are pushing an air tight plug into a cylinder. When doing that you are compressing the air trapped in the cylinder. Opening the valve stem and letting the air out makes the cartridge seat a lot easier.

good idea and I'll do it, but I will have the water shut down and drained anyway.

THX

Best

 

[Ghostmaker]

You do know your suppose to turn the outer cartridge right to left to loosen it before yanking. If that fails and the center stem pops out i just stuck a masonry bit that was just a touch larger then the stem into the hole left by the stem. Rotate and you can now pull it out.

Also works on Kitchen sink faucets.