[zanydroid]

I think Eaton BR is the best residential panel that supports retrofit smart breakers (the smart breakers finally came on the market this year).

Leviton has a panel and smart breakers but I really don't see the point of the feature set (EG, they can monitor energy and turn the breakers OFF but can't turn them ON. What?). Leviton is also new to the panel game.

There's a few small companies that do smart panels (span.io being the flashiest and most expensive, couple ones below that, might leverage Eaton's previous generation relay breakers or something). Not worth considering IMO.

Most future proof for solar would probably be 225A busbar solar ready meter-main. The basic solar set ups can put an unlimited amount of solar on the solar breakers. The advanced setups I don't believe are compatible with feeding into the solar breakers; in that case the max size busbar gives you more flexibility in connecting equipment.

 

[zanydroid]

All, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I really do appreciate it.

-- Thus far, it seems like going for as many breaker spaces as is reasonably possible is the way to go.
-- In addition, there is a phrase "solar ready" I have now seen -- I am assuming that this means the panel has some compatibility feature should I ever install solar panels on my roof(?)

I have a little less that a month before the scheduled swap-out date....I think I am going to try to locate / source / purchase the panel myself in advance.

I did not understand the copper vs. aluminum comment above......but I live in California if that bears into the discussion.

Hopefully not off-topic for this thread, but:

• what makes a meter-main or panel "solar-ready"? Does a solar back-feed breaker need to be bolt-down?
• which vendor(s) would you recommend for smart panel capability?

Solar's a good deal in California given the expensive electricity. The net metering incentives will probably get worse within a few months, so I'd suggest looking into it if you have the means since you would want to start the project soon to get in before the rules change deadline for NEM3.0.

I'm not sure of all the things that solar ready can mean. In general, it means that there is dedicated capacity on the panel to handle solar. In a normal panel the panel's rating needs to be taken into account, so you can't have as big of a main breaker or as many loads on it if you attach solar. On the flip side, the panel doesn't have to be re-tested/re-qualified for solar. With a solar ready panel, the panel has special engineering & solar rating, so that you don't have to derate the busbar rating. Practically speaking, this translates to supporting more solar.

One way to achieve this is to have a built-in line-side tap to insert the solar. The tap goes to a set of solar breakers and bypasses the busbar. My understanding is that getting a line side tap built into the panel by the manufacturer is a lot more palatable to the AHJ and POCO than a field-installed line side tap.

However, the line side tap version is going to be upstream of an Automatic Transfer Switch (needed for operating off grid when the grid is down), which means the panels attached there are not going to be usable in an off-grid emergency.

Solar breakers don't need bolt down if they come from interactive sources (IE turn off if they can't see power coming in). Most residential solar inverters are grid tied interactive sources. I haven't worked with grid-forming inverters yet (like batteries or no-battery off-grid systems like IQ8 microinverters), I would imagine those need to be bolted down. However usually those land in a special panel provided by the manufacturer anyway.

 

[zanydroid]

• which vendor(s) would you recommend for smart panel capability?

As for vendors for smart panels, search back for my previous post, I talk about a few smart panels. Post #7

 

[zanydroid]

I didn't know that there are breakers with surge built in. Is that what I hear called smart breakers? Both are new to me. Time for a "continuing education" course.

Smart breakers mean: have energy monitoring, contactors that can open/close the connection (Leviton can only Open for stupid reasons). WiFi or other way of getting the data out and controlling the contactors. App to look at the data. I think you can also read out information about faults.

I haven't seen breakers with surge, I don't think it makes sense. The breakers are big enough just with GFCI and AFCI. You can get plug-on surge protectors though to protect the whole busbar and downstream devices/subpanels. I use several of those at my house. Yes, they cost way more and waste a bit of space on the busbar, but I think they look neater.

 

[zanydroid]

As a follow-on to my previous post, I am now better understanding "spaces" vs. "circuits," and I very much appreciate the education. I just sent an email to the GC, stating that I want no less than 30 spaces in the new panel.

New question: Aside from the cost of the panel itself, should the labor / installation cost of a 20 vs. 30 space main panel (200 Amp in both cases) be any different?

It should be very close unless there's a special case like one of them fitting exactly in the opening and requiring significantly less patching.

Meter main is special in that there's less space available due to the meter taking up space. You would also need to comply with POCO's requirement on approved meter main, which may take a lot of research / back and forth with EC, for you to figure out. There's also special considerations like which way the service conductors need to enter based on how your electrical system is, and whether the meter main you've picked is compatible with feeding that way.

One way to bypass this is to get the additional spaces in a subpanel. It is much easier for you as a DIY to pick out a subpanel that's code compliant. If you feed the subpanel with a large enough feeder it equivalent in many ways (every way with a traditional system, there are some nuances with solar) to having a bigger single panel. Basically it just needs to fit and be the size & brand you want. Adding this second subpanel and moving circuits to it will most likely cost more labor.

(Also as I said before, I'd try to do 225A busbar 200A main breaker, that should only be a small increase in material cost over 200A busbar)

 

[zanydroid]

Aside from pure larceny, is there any justifiable reason why it would cost $1500 MORE just to install an outdoor panel with more breaker spaces?

I imagine you know what the conditions are around the panel, and they're pretty normal (like no major things that need to be relocated for the larger size).

In my town that would require an amended permit with the city and with the power company. It's eligible for a quick review in both cases though b/c the main parameters are similar to what you have in the project originally. Does add a little bit of admin cost and plan change cost.

Other than that, this sounds like it's priced to be competitive (sarcasm) with how much it would cost you to hire an electrician to change it out later (which will definitely require an electrician since this is service equipment and the service conductors are always live unless you arrange to have it shut off) or a subpanel for extra spaces (which you can probably do yourself safely after killing the main breaker, the main downside with this being using up about a studbay worth of space on a wall somewhere).

 

[zanydroid]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I probably do not have any truly good options. The (current) 100-Amp panel is a bit "busy," with a couple of EMT runs feeding out of the top (up into the attic) as well two more EMT runs coming out of the bottom (into the crawlspace). I would assume, however, that all of those connections would still have to be restored regardless of the number of spaces in the new 200-Amp panel (20 spaces vs. 42 spaces?)

If I had to guess, I suspect that the GC under-budgeted for the panel initially. I looked up the contract; he has allocated $1800 for the 200-Amp 20-space panel install (with a ~ $300 cost on top for the panel itself). If I go for the 42-space panel, however, the installation cost jumps to ($1800 + $1500 = $3300), with the material cost also going up to $500 for the larger panel.

Is it worth $1700 more -- all-in -- for the additional panel spaces (42 vs. 20)?

What would it cost to simply add a sub-panel some day in the future (and would that work as well as a larger panel initially)?

I feel the pain in my wallet already......I am just trying to understand if this is even reasonable......thanks again.

The GC probably also wants to make a good profit margin on the time they spend on redoing the permits. Which I can sort of get if they're busy & getting plenty of work.

If the main panel is a meter-main, then a 42 space might be extraordinarily awkward geometry. I've only window shopped & sniffed at meter-mains so I'm not super familiar.

I think you can get a sub-panel for like $1000-1500 installed later. I believe my solar installation was +$1000 per subpanel (and those are eligible for ITC tax credit). The retail cost of the materials would be around $200-300 for the wire and conduit. If you have time to hustle and know how to communicate, for a self-contained project you might be able to get it cheaper if you find an electrician that can swing by after another job to make some easy money. It depends on if subpanel triggers "quote higher to make more money on often easy job" like can happen with EV charger work.

Whether it works as well depends on where it's placed vs the larger panel. If it can tuck in right next to the larger panel with convenient conduit to move circuits over, and you need the spaces for new circuits starting at that part of the house, it would work just as well, except for wasting some space. Maybe having the subpanel inside instead of outside in the MSP can be more convenient when resetting. Sometimes you need circuits over in another part of the house, in that case maybe a subpanel over there would make things easier. I've done that for utility room and for solar combiner. Alternatively you could end up having to put the subpanel in a weird place, and it just makes things harder.

I guess another input, besides how nicely another subpanel can be squeezed in given your layout, is how soon you need additional spaces. 20 is quite tight if that's the only panel in a house. If you need them right away, then there is real value simplifying your life and getting it sorted out now.

 

[zanydroid]

Not as nice as some of the other manufacturers like Leviton. The "smart" breakers take a extra slot, don't even have PON for the neutral, and aren't available in GFCI or AFCI.

Sure, they are pretty big and take up a ton of panel space. When I was looking at these, the alternative was adding an external contactor to control a load, which is a much larger footprint. Eaton also as an EVSE packaged as a many-slot breaker. It's huge for a breaker but much smaller than any standalone EVSE box.

The capabilities on Leviton are not as good. EG Leviton can only turn off a load, not turn it back on. With this limitation I find it hard to appreciate the incremental value prop for DIY over just sticking an external energy monitor on the ports where you need it. Apart from being able to install quickly and neatly.

What are the other ones you're familiar with?