[Jjh5255]

Just purchased a house with a new York AE series hvac unit installed. The heater is electric and model 6HK16501006C heating coil. When the blower increases speed the heating coil makes a high pitched squeaking noise. I can only assume it's from one or several of the ceramic insulators on the heating coil. As seen in the photo some of the outer insulators have more wiggle room then inner ones which may be the issue. Has anyone experienced this issue with an electric heater and found a good solution?

I have some super lube grease which I could put on the metal rail the ceramic insulators sit on, but, this would be a very tedious fix. Before anyone posts about the blower motor bearings or the grease, I have already confirmed it is NOT the bearings and super lube is a dielectric and rated for 230°C so there should be no issue if it's used.

 

[user_12345a]

i doubt it's coming from the element - probably from the blower motor or controls.

call your installer back.

 

[Jjh5255]

Incorrect, it is NOT coming from the blower motor or controls as I have already stated. I originally thought it was the blower and removed it. The bearing looked fine and showed no signs of failure. I then removed the heating coil and ran the system for several days. No noise what so ever. Upon reinstall of the heater the noise returned.

 

[user_12345a]

The element runs on 60hz line voltage, it's not possible for it to make anything but a 60hz hum.

Now, the board could make a noise in response to having the heater kit in if it's trying to switch a sequencer or something.

Also, the fan may run at a different speed in electric heat mode.

Regardless of it the cause is, you need to call the installer back and not mess with it. You shouldn't be randomly disconnecting things - could actually void the warranty and piss off the installer.

If the installer won't do anything, may be able to go through york and get another dealer to take a look.

 

[yuri]

You cannot have any tight spots on that heating coil or porcelains as it has to expand and contract when heated and cooled.

Any grease you put on will attract dust and burn or cause a hot spot which will overheat the coil and cause it to bunt out prematurely.

Make a video of it and post in on You Tube and link it here. Maybe I can hear it and see if it is unusual.

 

[Jjh5255]

The element runs on 60hz line voltage, it's not possible for it to make anything but a 60hz hum.

Now, the board could make a noise in response to having the heater kit in if it's trying to switch a sequencer or something.

Also, the fan may run at a different speed in electric heat mode.

Regardless of it the cause is, you need to call the installer back and not mess with it. You shouldn't be randomly disconnecting things - could actually void the warranty and piss off the installer.

If the installer won't do anything, may be able to go through york and get another dealer to take a look.

You cannot have any tight spots on that heating coil or porcelains as it has to expand and contract when heated and cooled.

Any grease you put on will attract dust and burn or cause a hot spot which will overheat the coil and cause it to bunt out prematurely.

Make a video of it and post in on You Tube and link it here. Maybe I can hear it and see if it is unusual.

user_12345a
The noise is not in response the frequency of the grid power nor any switching noise from relays or control board. It is mechanical in nature. I have tested the fan when it increases speed and there is no issue, only when the coil is present.

Yuri,
I understand the need for expansion with heat on the insulators but these seem to have considerably more play then the rest. I can try and record the noise and send to you. It sounds high pitched and as if the whole heater assembly were shaking. I have looked for any loose points on the frame but have not found any. It doesn't occur until the blower speeds up and calls for heat. As I stated to user_12345a the blower speeding up without the coil present makes no noise, only when the coil is installed. It's usually several seconds to a minute after the blower speeds up.

 

[Jjh5255]

Additionally it made this noise with the AC on as well and the heating coil present. Once I removed the coil and AC on there was no issue.

 

[surferdude2]

Bearings can squeal... heaters can rattle. Rarely can either do both. The pitch is the key.

When you use the term squeal, those who know what a sleeve bearing squeal sounds like will immediately figure you have a motor bearing running dry and failing.

If you are familiar with bearing squeal, you will know that it's a very unique sound and can actually come and go under certain conditions but usually when it starts, it continues without interruption. The device it comes from is also unique. An alternator bearing (ball type) squealing sounds entirely different than a water pump bearing (sleeve type). Likewise for a small inducer motor vs. a system circulation fan motor.

Many fractional H.P. motors use oilite sleeve bearings and when they squeal, you can oil them and gain a little more service life, but their reliability is doubtful. Many a motor is replaced that only needed the bearings replaced.

To locate sources of noises, I use a length of rubber or plastic tubing for a hearing aid.


ps, The same familiarity applies to the squeal of a slipping V-belt. It's unique. So is the smell it produces.

 

[yuri]

If it is a newer unit then it has a direct drive motor with sleeve bearings which cannot squeal. Old belt drive units could squeal the belt.

Possibly it is just " loose construction" tolerances and methods York used. ICP used to be somewhat "lighter" built and noisy IMO. Not running down anybody.

The quality of construction and how thick the metal is makes a difference in sound. Lennox and Carrier have traditionally been thicker and heavier and quieter but you pay more $$ than for a ICP/Heil or Goodman.

I have seen units held together with 1/4" #8 screws on the fan and rattle and really cheap built.

Point is it may just be a noisy unit and that may be normal. Get your installer or a reputable York dealer to check it. They may say they all sound that way.

York is usually pretty good but I don't know if they have started making lighter units.

He may get you a new heating element under warranty if you talk nice to them and schmooze. Get belligerent and they will tell you where to go.

 

[Jjh5255]

Bearings can squeal... heaters can rattle. Rarely can either do both. The pitch is the key.

When you use the term squeal, those who know what a sleeve bearing squeal sounds like will immediately figure you have a motor bearing running dry and failing.

If you are familiar with bearing squeal, you will know that it's a very unique sound and can actually come and go under certain conditions but usually when it starts, it continues without interruption. The device it comes from is also unique. An alternator bearing squealing sounds entirely different than a water pump bearing. Likewise for a small inducer motor vs. a system circulation fan motor.

Many fractional H.P. motors use oilite sleeve bearings and when they squeal, you can oil them and gain a little more service life, but their reliability is doubtful. Many a motor is replaced that only needed the bearings replaced.

To locate sources of noises, I use a length of rubber or plastic tubing for a hearing aid.


ps, The same familiarity applies to the squeal of a slipping V-belt. It's unique.

surferdude2,
Defo agree the noise of a bearing can come and go depending on circumstances. I bought spare bearings to put in just incase it was the bearing however, at this point everything points to heater coil. I am willing to replace the bearings if I can be convinced they are bad but I don't see how it could be the bearings.
1. Only occurs when heater coil is present
2. Occurs both on heat and AC
3. Occurs when the blower speeds up and heater is present.
How would the coil present affect the bearing? Do you think the coil adds enough resistance to the airflow to cause the bearing to heat up and begin to make noise?

 

[surferdude2]

Oil the bearings lightly, it won't do any harm. If the sound ceases, voila!

I have a small 3 in 1 oil plastic container that has a pull out spout that you can get at Wally World or the other big box stores. Very handy but don't store it with the spout extended unless you want a lesson on thermal expansion and a big oily mess.

I wouldn't use WD-40 unless you're sure you are going to replace the bearing anyway.

As for the noise being dependent on the heating coil or motor speed, both are increasing the static pressure the fan is operating against. Since the loading of the motor will change ever so slightly, it could be a factor.

 

[surferdude2]

And of course a whistle is another unique sound that may be at work here. Air movement at certain velocities over certain configurations of air stream obstacles can produce strange sounds. You think of that as a whistle usually. I won't discount the possibility that it could make a sound similar to a squeal.

Moving some of those heater coils around slightly might provide relief. Maybe the air leaking around the heater housing is a cause. Move it a little while the sound is present.

 

[user_12345a]

most new air handlers have an ecm motor with very good bearings and don't get oiled.

even the ones with psc motors, the oem ones are sealed bearing, not serviceable. If the motor is bad, it gets replaced.

 

[surferdude2]

Au contraire... I replace sealed bearing with new sealed bearings all the time. If someone put them in there, someone can take them out.

All bearings get lubricated one way or another (except the ones that float on air like the dentist drills). Even oilite bearings get oil from what is apparently a solid brass sleeve but in reality it is impregnated with oil, hence the name oilite. It gets a source of oil from oil soaked waste material in the housing. Oilite bearing fail when to pores get plugged with dirt and the oil can't ooze through or else when the waste material dries out. When that happens, the brass gets smeared from running dry and can never be restored to its previous condition and will eventually have to be replaced. Oiling it will give temporary relief at best.

 

[user_12345a]

most people don't change bearings in small motors. it's not something new motor should need.

The air handler is new and should be covered by warranty.

 

[surferdude2]

I still fix things by replacing discrete component parts whenever it's easy and costs less for the customer. I consider myself a repairman.

In the trades, those who are assembly replacing servicemen are referred to as being "Sears and Robuck" mechanics since they were famous for replacing parts until the problem went away and then charging for all of them. Many auto mechanics do that still since diagnosing complex problems is harder for them. I try no to fall prey.

Here's what one of those sealed bearings looks like when removed from its native habitat. It's no sleeve bearing like the furnace motors... I don't save those.

Click on the picture to get the title I gave it. :smile:

 

[user_12345a]

I still fix things by replacing discrete component parts whenever it's easy and costs less for the customer. I consider myself a repairman.

In the trades, those who are assembly replacing servicemen are referred to as being "Sears and Robuck" mechanics since they were famous for replacing parts until the problem went away and then charging for all of them. Many auto mechanics do that still since diagnosing complex problems is harder for them. I try no to fall prey.

Here's what one of those sealed bearings looks like when removed from its native habitat. It's no sleeve bearing like the furnace motors... I don't save those.

Click on the picture to get the title I gave it. :smile:

(When it's under warranty - best to just warranty it.)

You're rare.

These days, if you find a willing assembly replacer for something much more than 10 years old, you're lucky. Most contractors just want to put in a new unit and inflate repair costs so much so replacement looks attractive.

I wanted have sealed bearings replaced on a very expensive inducer assembly (not for me) and no one in my area was willing to touch it for under $200, most motor shops i called outright refused.

A shame really - so much repairable stuff gets scrapped.

 

[Jjh5255]

I still fix things by replacing discrete component parts whenever it's easy and costs less for the customer. I consider myself a repairman.

In the trades, those who are assembly replacing servicemen are referred to as being "Sears and Robuck" mechanics since they were famous for replacing parts until the problem went away and then charging for all of them. Many auto mechanics do that still since diagnosing complex problems is harder for them. I try no to fall prey.

Here's what one of those sealed bearings looks like when removed from its native habitat. It's no sleeve bearing like the furnace motors... I don't save those.

Click on the picture to get the title I gave it.

I still fix things by replacing discrete component parts whenever it's easy and costs less for the customer. I consider myself a repairman.

In the trades, those who are assembly replacing servicemen are referred to as being "Sears and Robuck" mechanics since they were famous for replacing parts until the problem went away and then charging for all of them. Many auto mechanics do that still since diagnosing complex problems is harder for them. I try no to fall prey.

Here's what one of those sealed bearings looks like when removed from its native habitat. It's no sleeve bearing like the furnace motors... I don't save those.

Click on the picture to get the title I gave it.

(When it's under warranty - best to just warranty it.)

You're rare.

These days, if you find a willing assembly replacer for something much more than 10 years old, you're lucky. Most contractors just want to put in a new unit and inflate repair costs so much so replacement looks attractive.

I wanted have sealed bearings replaced on a very expensive inducer assembly (not for me) and no one in my area was willing to touch it for under $200, most motor shops i called outright refused.

A shame really - so much repairable stuff gets scrapped.

So it turns out my theory was correct. I added tiny amounts of the super lube onto the rails beside each insulator with a toothpick. Then slid the insulators back an forth to get it worked in and finally wiped off the excess with a q-tip. Additionally I reseated a few of the heater cools so that they were all the same length. After reassembling it has been working great and no issues for several hours. Seems like a cheap design for the heater coil. Thanks for the input.

 

[surferdude2]

I can't argue with success. I wouldn't have done it that way... perhaps graphite lube might be more suitable for the temperature range at that point. It does have its own drawbacke however... it's electrically conductive.

High Temp Graphite Lubes

 

[Jjh5255]

I can't argue with success. I wouldn't have done it that way... perhaps graphite lube might be more suitable for the temperature range at that point. It does have its own drawbacke however... it's electrically conductive.

High Temp Graphite Lubes

Super lube is a dielectric so no chance of shorting anything and its rated for 230°C, hence why I used it.