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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
:furious: Once again, the inspector decided to come up with more things he could've brought up on any of the 4 inspection. It's mostly little stuff. For now I'll stick with the one I need to ask about here.

So he pointed out the new panel I intend to move my service to should have a ground wire to the water meter. My question is on sizing the wire. What size does it need to be? 200 amp service. A table reference would be handy, is it the same table I used for the ground conductor sizing?
 

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For 200 amp service use a 4 gauge copper wire from the panel to the water pipe (within 5 feet of where it enters the house and also between where it enters and the meter).

This is from a different table of sizes (for grounding electrode conductors) as opposed to ground wires from main panel to subpanel (grounding conductors).

Also add 6 gauge copper jumpers across the inlet and outlet of the meter and across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
For 200 amp service use a 4 gauge copper wire from the panel to the water pipe (within 5 feet of where it enters the house and also between where it enters and the meter).

Also add 6 gauge copper jumpers across the inlet and outlet of the meter and across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.

This is from a different table of sizes as opposed to ground wires from main panel to subpanel.
K... I'm assuming I only have to connect this at the meter???

The meter itself is actually physically inside the house, it has a wire to a supplemental digital readout on the outside of the house. The pipe comes out of the ground in the crawlspace, there isn't anywhere outside the house that the pipe is accessible.
 

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:furious: Once again, the inspector decided to come up with more things he could've brought up on any of the 4 inspection. It's mostly little stuff. For now I'll stick with the one I need to ask about here.

So he pointed out the new panel I intend to move my service to should have a ground wire to the water meter. My question is on sizing the wire. What size does it need to be? 200 amp service. A table reference would be handy, is it the same table I used for the ground conductor sizing?
Table 250.66
#4 CU or #2 AL.
 

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You can run #4cu or #2al to one side of water meter and than jump over to other side with the same wire.Use same size wire for hot water heater
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
:huh:

thanks for mentioning the water heater... I'd certainly rather this came up now than on Weds.

Sooo... I'll be back later with pictures, but the water heater and the meter happen to be in the same room at this time. (I later was planning on moving the water heater and going to tankless, but that's a few years off and I plan to be doing less DIY by then since the house will be paid off in theory)

1) I assume that I can pass the wire through the clamp for one, then continue it on to the other

2) For the water heater, do I connect to hot, cold, both or somewhere else?
3) Is there anything else I might have overlooked for grounding?
 

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Also add 6 gauge copper jumpers across the inlet and outlet of the meter and across the inlet and outlet of the water heater.

really? never had anyone tell me that before, guess it makes sense since the heater might break the grounding path... we don't have one on our heater, is this just for electric heaters or all water heaters?
 

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Unless you have no boiler, or no shower mixing valves in the house, you do NOT have to jump hot to cold at the water heater.
Typically the hot and cold are bonded far better than a wire jumper could ever provide.
 

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The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.
 

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The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.
What section?
 

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The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.
You can keep re-posting this all you want. It is still NOT, repeat NOT, required.

Also, a properly installed water bond would also eliminate the problem you describe. I'd bet anything that something else was not correct in that scenario. it was NOT the fault of the missing golden jumper.
 

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The use of dielectric fitting and when the hot water heater is removed can cause the pipes to energized. There have been cases where plumbewrs removed a hot water heater and while working on other plumbing got shocked. Bonding the hot water heater eleiminate this problem.
Other codes are used in also such as IRC and IBC. Depending on your loaction and what codes in addition are being used, will dictate whether this bonding jumper is needed. IMO it is not a big deal to install this bonding jumper. 2 clamps, piece of wire and 5-10 minutes of time. In NJ it is required.
It is best to check with your local AHJ and get there information.
Each area is different, there are section of the 2008 that NJ does not enforce and we have not yet adopted the 2011. When we do it will more than likely there will be parts not adopted.
Below is the commentary in regards to bonding of metal pipies. It is from 2002 but still is accurate.

NEC 2002 HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;

Bonding the interior metal water piping system is not the same as using the metal water piping system as a grounding electrode. Bonding to the grounding electrode system places the bonded components at the same voltage level. For example, a current of 2000 amperes across 25 ft of 6 AWG copper conductor produces a voltage differential of approximately 26 volts. Section 250.104(A)(1) requires the interior metal water piping system and any other metal piping systems likely to become energized to be bonded to the service equipment or grounding electrode conductor.
If it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected, an electrical bonding jumper is required to ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be exercised for each installation. The special installation requirements provided in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping bonding jumper.
And since we are copying and pasting posts from other threads:

The handbook commentary is NOT the code and is NOT enforceable. It is simply commentary. Don't get me wrong though, I use it myself quite often.

Sure, "it cannot reasonably be concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably interconnected", but it CAN be confirmed by checking that the items I mentioned are present in the house.
If this were the case WHY is it not required in the code itself???

Do you refute the fact that a shower mixing valve does physically, mechanically and electrically bond the hot and cold piping systems???
 

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Yes, mainly for gas hot water heaters
I cut and pasted this. The following is still in effect.

Water Heaters and Bonding
Bonding jumpers are required for water heaters in accordance with the 2002 edition of the National Electrical Code, Section 250.104, entitled “Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.” Section 250.104(B), “Other Metal Piping,” states that “metal piping systems that may become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.”

The bonding jumper shall be sized in accordance with Section 250.122, “Size of Equipment Grounding Conductors,” using the rating of the circuit that may energize the piping system. The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit is to be allowed to serve as the bonding means.

The points of attachment of the bonding jumper must be accessible.

If, at the time of replacement, an existing water heater has no bonding jumper but has an equipment grounding conductor present, then no bonding jumper would be required to be installed because the equipment grounding conductor is allowed to serve as the bonding means.

However, if there is no bonding jumper or equipment grounding conductor present at the time of replacement, particularly with gas water heaters, then a bonding jumper must be installed and an electrical permit is required.

If you have any questions on this matter, you may reach me at:
(609) 984-7609.
Source: Suzanne Borek
Code Assistance Unit

The December 19, 2005 New Jersey Register, at 37 NJR 4907, contained an adoption making the inspection of the bonding jumper for the replacement of only gas water heaters the responsibility of the plumbing inspector.

This is no longer the electrical inspector’s responsibility!

The plumbing inspector will now inspect for the bonding jumper on gas water heater replacements only.

The bonding jumper does not require an electrical permit and is to be included on the Plumbing Subcode Technical Section with the gas water heater replacement fee. The plumbing inspector will check for the bonding jumper and sign off on the Plumbing Subcode Technical Section on the line for “other,” inserting “water heater bonding jumper.”

The bonding jumper, Section 250.104(B) of the 2002 National Electrical Code (NEC), is to be sized in accordance with Table 250.122 of the 2002 NEC using the rating of the circuit that may energize the piping system.
This means, if the water heater is in a structure that has a 200-AMP service with a 200-AMP main breaker, this is the rating of the circuit which could energize the piping system and then the size of the bonding jumper in Table 250.122 would be a 6-AWG copper, or 4-AWG aluminum or copper-clad aluminum, conductor.
The clamps installed on the water pipes must be approved and listed, as stated in Sections 250.70 and 110.3(B) in the 2002 NEC. The clamps may be of dissimilar metals, provided they are approved and listed for the use.

To sum it up . . .
Gas Water Heater Replacement:
♦ No electrical permit
♦ Plumbing Subcode technical fee includes the
bonding jumper
♦ Plumbing inspector signs off for the bonding
jumper on the “other” line on the technical section
 

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You are aware that by "bonding jumper" they are referring to the water bond, and NOT a hot/cold "jumper" wire, aren't you? :whistling2:
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So I just finished the water pipe bonding based on the most strict interpretation of what has been discussed here. I attached a #4 stranded bare copper wire on the ground bar in my panel, went out through a 1/2" cable clamp and up into the attic then down through a floor to ceiling cabinet. The cabinet is right next to the water meter, so I came out of the bottom of the cabinet on the side near the meter.

The old "bonding jumper" for lack of a better term was a stranded copper wire that connected a grounding clamp on one side of the meter to a grounding clamp on the other side of the meter. I removed this and reused the clamps.

The #4 copper stranded wire passes through the clamps on both sides of the meter.

The cold water pipe (copper) goes under a step which leads into the kitchen, it goes to a tee fitting and one leg goes into the crawlspace to supply cold water for the kitchen and bathrooms, while the other leg goes to the water heater. The #4 copper wire is also running continuously past the 2 water meter clamps and under the step, it ends at a clamp on the hot water pipe coming out of the water heater, approximately 4' of copper pipe is between the clamp on the hot water pipe and the dielectric fitting on the water heater.

I had purchased a 30' length of the #4 copper wire and used its entire length. There is only one section of this wire that is exposed for more than 12", and that is the section after the step going to the last ground clamp on the hot water. I'm assuming it would be prudent to secure this wire with zip ties lest the inspector has another excuse to fail the inspection again, but at this point once again everything and more that he has raised is resolved.
 

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Did you use a Kenny Clamp coming oput of the panel http://kennyclamp.com/ or a Romex Connector? If you used a Romex Connector, strip the wire so that the clamp comes in conrtact with the bare copper. Sorry just re-read your post and saw that you used bare coper.
 
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