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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone. I am going to replace the plumbing in a very small 900 sq ft house. The house sits on a slab, and the water enters in the utility room in the center of the house more or less. The walls are all completely gutted, so I have ready access to everything. The old plumbing is already gone. I am thinking to use PEX for the new plumbing.

As you might imagine, the distances involved in this house are very small. There is a half bath, a full bath, a kitchen, the utility room, and one exterior hose spigot. I bet the farthest fixture from where the water enters in the utility room is maybe 10'.

I have been trying to decide whether to do a manifold system, a sub manifold system, or just reproduce the old trunk and branch system, only with PEX. The place is so small I have found myself wondering if the advantages and disadvantages of each of those systems would be very apparent. How much does it matter which system I choose?

I thought that people more knowledgeable and experienced than myself might be able to help me make this decision.

Thank you for any thoughts.
 

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With PEX, the pipe is so cheap and the fittings so expensive, that it generally costs more to do a branch system. The branch system also suffers from a couple of other problems which the manifold arrangement does not: 1) The pressure drop is minimal to nonexistent with a manifold system, so no getting scalded in the shower when someone flushes. 2) There's a smaller volume of water sitting in the lines with the manifold system, because the lines are smaller. That means you won't have to run as much water before it gets hot (or cold).
 

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I would use CPVC pipe.
You'd be in a small minority with that opinion. Compared to PEX, CPVC is more labor intensive, less durable, and more expensive in most cases (except long, straight runs).


Install an anti-scald valve in each shower.

Then you just lose water pressure when someone flushes the toilet. Somewhat better, I suppose. As long as you're not trying to pass an FHA home inspection (required for VA and some other mortgages), it's only an inconvenience.



Personally, I'd opt for the easier option without the inconvenience.
 

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You'd be in a small minority with that opinion. Compared to PEX, CPVC is more labor intensive, less durable, and more expensive in most cases (except long, straight runs).

No. But that's what greedy people would want one to believe. Greedy and Lazy people. Some things are swept under the carpet like.
Pex in order to reach the highest toxicity level allowed by code must be flushed for 16 consecutive days and that's still not the end of it.




Then you just lose water pressure when someone flushes the toilet. Somewhat better, I suppose. As long as you're not trying to pass an FHA home inspection (required for VA and some other mortgages), it's only an inconvenience.

Wrong again. When properly installed the system works preventing any change of temperature from the shower head. In my house I can turn on every faucet and flush both toilets and the shower will remain the same temp, yes it will have a drop of pressure if its on its way down from 50 psi. to 40 psi. at the pressure tank.



Personally, I'd opt for the easier option without the inconvenience.
No comment.
 

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From the introduction of ron45's linked article:

Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) pipes are rapidly replacing conventional copper pipes throughout the USA because they are 75% and 50% less expensive than copper and chlorinated polyvinylchloride (cPVC) pipes, respectively (Connell et al. 2013). A 2011 US homeowner survey revealed 54% of residents replumbed their homes with PEX pipe compared to 9% for copper and 7% for cPVC...
Thanks for documenting my points.

Most places, you should be filtering the water that you drink, anyway, because there's far worse stuff in the water before it even gets to your house, than what it gains from the PEX pipes. And have you tasted the water that came through a new copper line? Yuk!
 

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From the introduction of ron45's linked article:


Thanks for documenting my points.

Most places, you should be filtering the water that you drink, anyway, because there's far worse stuff in the water before it even gets to your house, than what it gains from the PEX pipes. And have you tasted the water that came through a new copper line? Yuk!
Ah, but its the content after those points that count. If you read the link given you will find a lot of shady BS went on to get pex pipe passed.


I don't have city water I have well water.
 

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Here's just a fraction of it.

"" It has been well documented that PEX pipes sold in Europe release chemicals into drinking water and alter odor quality. Two fairly limited scope studies were found that examined PEX pipes available in the USA, while a recent study has shown six brands sold in the USA can alter tap water chemical and odor quality for at least 30 days (Kelley et al. 2014). Other investigators found PEX pipes can alter drinking water chemical and odor quality (Durand & Dietrich 2007; Chemaxx 2007). Various types of PEX pipes (-a, -b, -c) exist and impart antioxidants and their degradation products, solvents used for resin production, manufacturing agents, and multiple unidentified organic contaminants into drinking water (Skjevrak et al. 2003; Koch 2004; Lund et al. 2011). Total organic carbon (TOC) concentration levels have been reported as high as 5 mg/L near room temperature after only 3 days of water contact (Koch 2004). Not all pipes released lesser levels of TOC at the end of the reported experiments. Some pipes released more TOC. For example, of 10 PEX brands tested in Europe for 9 days, five brands demonstrated a reduction in TOC after 9 days, two brands imparted more TOC, and three brands did not impart a detectable level of TOC at all during the studies (Skjevrak et al. 2003; Koch 2004). When European investigators examined multiple brands of PEX for 1 year, three of 11 brands imparted more TOC to tap water after 1 year than during the first 3 days installed (Lund et al. 2011). These dissimilar responses lend themselves to question what compounds are being released in what quantity and why?

Short-duration experiments have found PEX pipes available in Europe altered drinking water odor for up to a year (Skjevrak et al. 2003; Koch 2004; Lund et al. 2011). Some PEX pipes caused threshold odor number (TON) values ranging from 2 to 128 TON (Skjevrak et al. 2003; Koch 2004; Lund et al. 2011). In the USA, gasoline-like odor issues have been found in homes plumbed with new PEX-b piping; tert-butanol (TBA) and methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) were detected in drinking water at 52,000 μg/L and 740 μg/L, respectively (Chemaxx 2007). Ethyl tert-butyl ether (ETBE) concentrations from 23 μg/L to greater than 100 μg/L were found leaching from a single brand of new PEX pipe for a 9–12 day exposure period causing the water to smell similar to alcohol, burning, plastic, and chemical (Durand & Dietrich 2007). It is notable that each of the published PEX leaching studies utilized a different pipe cleaning method before conducting their leaching tests.

A factor not considered in any past laboratory or field investigation is whether or not the method used to clean the newly installed PEX pipe alters that material's leaching response. If the cleaning method alters the pipe's impact on water quality, results of published studies may not be directly comparable to one another and the field. In addition, plumbers who clean the pipes may in fact affect chemical leaching. The existing PEX pipe migration literature is based on the application of a number of different cleaning methods (i.e., National Sanitation Foundation International (NSFI) Standard 61, Utility Quick Test (UQT), European EN 1420 and EN 12873).

In the USA, pipes are cleaned according to the International Plumbing Code (IPC 2009) and state-specific plumbing codes. Differences between cleaning methods include variations in disinfectant concentration and contact time (Table 2). Flushing and disinfection steps aim to remove sediment from the system and kill pathogenic organisms. An exception however is the State of California Plumbing Code (CPC 2010) whereby all PEX plumbing systems must undergo a specific cleaning method before use. Discussions with several plumbers and building contractors from the Mobile, Alabama metropolitan area revealed that some new potable water plumbing pipes are simply flushed with tap water for 30 min before use and not disinfected. Thus, there appears to be a wide range of different plumbing pipe cleaning methods applied throughout the USA. Owing to this variation, several questions cannot be answered. (1) Does a longer stagnation period result in more chemical extraction from a new pipe or should more frequent fill/empty cycles be conducted to maximize chemical removal? (2) Does the chlorine disinfectant's presence or concentration affect pipe chemical leaching? To answer these questions, PEX pipe cleaning methods need to be compared to determine the effect they have on contact water quality. ""
 

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the bottom line, according to the article, is that if there is a concern, use the cleaning method specified by the State of California. California seems to know about all sorts of things that are dangerous, that no one does.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the thoughts guys.

So perhaps a manifold system would be the way to go. Who do you guys think makes a good manifold? When you get a manifold do you typically have to buy everything else (Pipe, fittings, crimp rings, etc) from that same company? Or does it kind of depend?

Thanks!
 

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It shouldn't matter where you get the pipe, fittings, etc. They should all fit if they're the correct nominal size PEX fittings.


What you have to decide, though, is what type of connections you want to use. I think there are a couple different styles of crimped on connections, which you need special (and expensive) tools for, but the connections themselves are cheap. Then there's the push on fittings (sharkbite, et.al.), which are supposedly very easy and don't require any tools, but the fittings themselves are pricier.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I guess I'd wondered if, say, I bought a Viega Manabloc, for instance, if it would be particular about what type of crimp rings were used on its fittings. Or if the manufacturers of various pipe, fittings, manifolds would be weird about warranty stuff if you had mixed and matched between brands.

I have access to a tool that does the stainless steel crimp rings. So that is probably what I would opt for in terms of connectors. I am very leery of the shark bite stuff. I know that people have had success with it, but it relies on o-rings, and I don't see why that would not eventually drip just like a sink faucet that needs a new o-ring....
 

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Anyway, back to the subject. I would assume that it would not be wise to mix pieces of different fittings at the same connection. Having one brand or type of fitting at one end of a pipe and a different type or brand on the other end would be fine though.
 
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