[wader]

Hi Folks,
I have a Honda eu3000is which is rated at 2800W (3000W max for up to 30 mins) and am consider a 90-100' run to the 30A, 120V single phase APC UTS6H (.PDF) transfer switch that's connected to my main panel.

I originally envisioned a 10' run, but the 100' run would place this generator in a spot that's much easier for refueling and help keep it shielded from bad weather.

I've been trying various calculations of voltage drop that support 23.4A (i.e., 2800W / 120V) up to 100', but am not sure my numbers or assumptions are correct.

If I looked at AWG size resistances on Wikipedia, I see things like:

AWG Size Resistance (Ohms/ft)
10 0.000999
8 0.000628
6 0.000395
5 0.000313
4 0.000249
3 0.000197
2 0.000156
1 0.000124
1/0 0.0000983
2/0 0.0000779
3/0 0.0000618
4/0 0.000049

So, I thought Voltage drop could be calculated as:

Voltage drop = (Ohms/foot) × (length) × (current)

Which, in my case would give examples like:

10: 0.000999Ohm/ft x 100ft x 23.4A = 2.34V
8: 0.000628Ohm/ft x 100ft x 23.4A = 1.47V
6: 0.000395Ohm/ft x 100ft x 23.4A = 0.92V
5: 0.000313Ohm/ft x 100ft x 23.4A = 0.73V
4: 0.000249Ohm/ft x 100ft x 23.4A = 0.58V
. . .

Looking at other discussions, I may be doing something wrong with these numbers - plus, I don't know if there would be any problems using lower gauge wires with my (essentially) 30AMP run and connectors.

Figured I would use THNN/THWN through outdoor nonmetallic conduit from the outlet to the transfer switch, if that meets code.

My target is to minimize voltage drop for this little generator across the 100' span.

Thoughts or ideas welcome.

- wader

 

[brric]

#8 copper will give a 2.76% voltage drop over 100' @ 24 amps @120 volts.

 

[joecaption]

Hope you do not plan on running much more then a few lights.
Before doing anything I'd suggest you take the time to figure out the loads on what you plan on running to see if it will even work. Adding on that 100 ft. is really pushing it.

 

[wader]

Hope you do not plan on running much more then a few lights.
Before doing anything I'd suggest you take the time to figure out the loads on what you plan on running to see if it will even work. Adding on that 100 ft. is really pushing it.

Yeah, I know - that's why I was hoping that heavier gauge wire would help minimize the impact of this distance.

I'm only looking to power the house furnace blower, refrigerator, gas water heater and some odd lights - not more than the basics. Plus, this transfer switch allows me to configure different circuits as enabled for turning off up to x minutes in a given period of time, so it can dynamically load balance when one circuit has a suddenly large draw, etc.

- wader

 

[wader]

#8 copper will give a 2.76% voltage drop over 100' @ 24 amps @120 volts.

Thanks brric - maybe my calculations were off?

I should have mentioned that I'm planning ahead for parallel generators someday (twice the amps, essentially - neat feature of these models, and with a compatible transfer switch), so would like to wire for that eventuality.

Should I be considering 6 or even 4 gauge, then?

- wader

 

[joecaption]

Why would you want to have to deal with twice the maintaince, noise, fuel consumption and not just buy one bigger generator with a 30 amp outlet?

 

[Missouri Bound]

What you need to do is put the generator 10' away as you planned. With the money you save on the wire you can buy another generator.:laughing:

 

[wader]

Why would you want to have to deal with twice the maintaince, noise, fuel consumption and not just buy one bigger generator with a 30 amp outlet?

This inverter already worked well (using extension cords, which I'm getting away from), is very quiet at night (important due to the neighbors), has been easy to service and is great on gasoline. I would add on a parallel generator only if it was really needed - since that's possible, it was something I considered as a no-brainer growth path.

Sure, another option is that I could sell this unit through eBay and go for a 6500W 120/240V inverter model that's a little more money than two of my current models. Guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there, thanks.

So, on to my question about wire gauge to consider - any thoughts?

- wader

 

[wader]

What you need to do is put the generator 10' away as you planned. With the money you save on the wire you can buy another generator.:laughing:

Yeah, wire is expensive, I'm finding.

Still, I really want the better location and am considering a future upgrade to twice the power if this generator doesn't match up to my load expectations - so, I'm willing to at least consider how much it might cost for a future growth path before writing off the idea.

- wader

 

[wader]

Looking back, maybe I should revise this request for advice by just asking about wire gauge that would be appropriate a 100' run from a 54A generator to the transfer switch. Perhaps that's more straightforward to focus on.

I'll consider upgrading my generator ASAP if this makes sense to invest in.

We're in a storm now and the 10' solution is workable, but not easily so compared to the 90-100' location. My understanding is that you ideally want a voltage drop less than 5%, but again, I could be wrong.

Sorry, I'm just learning as I go along.

- wader

 

[rrolleston]

How do you plan on running this 100ft of wire? I think it would be much better to put the generator closer.

 

[Kyle_in_rure]

I really think you should consider moving the generator closer to the house. With motors starting (such as a fridge), you need all the power you can get, and you want as little voltage drop as possible.:yes:

 

[AllanJ]

Don't forget that it's a 200 foot run for the round trip.

Shoot for 3% or less voltage drop (3-1/2 volts out of 120) on the line out to the generator. There will be a percent or two additional loss in the wiring inside the house to the receptacles.

At most 3-1/2 volts loss divided by 30 amps means at most 0.12 ohms for the 200' round trip. I come up with 8 gauge copper wire for this run.

 

[Toller]

I did this a few years ago, also with a EU3000; only my run was 70'. I used 8/3. The labor is much more important than the material (at least it was in my case) and the /3 would allow an upgrade to a 240v generator twice as large.

 

[wader]

Don't forget that it's a 200 foot run for the round trip.

Shoot for 3% or less voltage drop (3-1/2 volts out of 120) on the line out to the generator. There will be a percent or two additional loss in the wiring inside the house to the receptacles.

At most 3-1/2 volts loss divided by 30 amps means at most 0.12 ohms for the 200' round trip. I come up with 8 gauge copper wire for this run.

Thanks AllanJ - good point about the return trip. I'd be interested how you mapped the 0.12Ohms for 200' to come up with 8 gauge wire, but the results is useful in and of itself.

I'd really prefer to use the 90-100' run (through plastic conduit around the outside of the house, adjacent to a plastic conduit that holds the wire run for our garage panel from the main) due to convenience, but might need to just build a mini structure to keep the generator protected from elements - and still allow for exhaust per Honda's operations manual - for the shorter run everyone is suggesting, I am thinking.

With my switch, does the voltage drop effect all circuits equally?

If I want to move up to a generator rated at 45A with 54A max, (and a corresponding transfer switch), would I need to use 6 gauge?

- wader

 

[wader]

I did this a few years ago, also with a EU3000; only my run was 70'. I used 8/3. The labor is much more important than the material (at least it was in my case) and the /3 would allow an upgrade to a 240v generator twice as large.

How did your setup work for you, if I may ask? I know a couple folks with a setup similar to mine using the eu3000i and they power at least everything I'm trying to keep going through the transfer switch, albeit with shorter runs from their inlet boxes than 90-100'.

Good suggestion on the 8-3 (or heavier gauge?) wire for future growth to a 240V generator, thanks.

. . .

So, this thread may have beaten me down to craft a mini-structure that keeps the generator safe from elements. Doesn't help with making access for refueling during a storm any easier, but that's what it is to make this work and not lose much voltage, I suppose.

- wader

 

[rrolleston]

If I want to move up to a generator rated at 45A with 54A max, (and a corresponding transfer switch), would I need to use to 6 gauge?

- wader

Yes....

 

[Jason34]

Maybe I can chime in on my little setup. I went with a generator ready loadcenter made by reliance. I wanted to do a whole new breaker box because my old one was a Bryant and was maxed out. So I installed this load center and ran 10/3 uf-b out to my shed which is 56' away and installed a safety switch and power inlet box. Reason for the safety switch is so that I can switch that off when refueling instead of having to go down into the basement to turn off that 30 amp breaker. I went out and got a 6000/7500 generator made by powermate and it powers my house perfecttly fine except for one thing. I am able to power 2 refridgerators, 1 upright freezer, furnace blower, oil hot water heater and any lights that I need to have on. Ofource I wouldnt be able to use my central A/C (no biggy) and I have to watch how I use my range (if I wanted to use it though I can just use the microwave). The only problem that I have is that the upright freezer sometimes has problems starting up. Its kinda stupid how the electrician set up the circuits in the new box. I had told him that I wanted each side of the box to be as even as possible. Put my range and dryer or A/C on seperate. The problem I have with the upright freezer is not that that freezer and the fridge in the basement next to it are on the same breaker (which I know isnt right either) but he has that breaker along with my furnace blower and hot water heater all on the left side of the panel. The outlet box that powers those 2 items (fridge and freezer) are in a box that has 4 total outlets. I was thinking of running the righr side off a new breaker and placing that breaker on the right side in the panel. Im thinking that will fix the problem. I have dual wattmeters on my panel so I can see how many watts each side of the panel is using. The left side which had all the things on it was using 1100 watts when everything was running (exclusing that freezer) and when the freezer tried to kick on it jumped to 3000 watts. The right side though was only at 500 watts so Im thinking that if I switch that outelt that runs the fridge over to the right side of the panel that I will be ok. Sorry that I brought up this much about my situation but thought maybe my setup would come to use for others. I thought maybe my setupe could compare to that of wader in reguards to the size of the generator he uses. I dont think the one he wants to use will do everything he wants it to do. And its always better to go bigger and have extra wattage just incase down the road you change something.

 

[k_buz]

Unless you have a Zinsco or Pushmatic panel, the side of the panel the breakers are on is irrelevant. Every other space vertically is an alternate phase.

As for your freezer starting and the 3000W you are seeing...that is a motor load. If that freezer was on its own phase by itself, when it starts you could EASILY see 2000-3000W from that alone.

So, please stop calling your electrician stupid because you are the one who is mistaken.

 

[Jason34]

Each side of the panel is allowed 3500 watts each for a total of 7000 watts. But the way the panel is wired up from factory one leg of the generator powers one side of the panel. So in my case of it being a 6000 watt generator, each leg will get a total of 3000 watts per leg. I know you are an electrician but I also know that I am right on what I am saying. Each leg of the generator powers 1 side of the panel. I have these o ring conductors that slip over the hot wires as they go to the 30 amp breaker, 1 ring per each wire. That is what gives me my wattage readout. If it was wired up to where each hot wire lead went to both sides of the box, my readouts would be the same. It even says in the loadcenter label to keep the sides as even as possible.