DIY Home Improvement Forum banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have a roof leak (wet stain in the ceiling) only during driving rain. I know where it is leaking but I am not sure the best approach to fix this. I may end up hiring a roofer but still would appreciate knowing the best practice.


Here is a overview picture. You can see in the middle I have a lower roof that slopes to the front, but I have a higher roof on the left and right sides that slopes towards the lower roof. So on the left and right side there is basically a triangular sliver of a "wall".





The leaks are under these two walls. The right side leaks much more when it's raining.


Here are pictures of the left side wall.





The flashing is visible. It should be under right? Where the two tapers together is basically a 1/4" rabbit guard pushed back there then a bunch of foam which seems to be half way disintegrated and very brittle.



On the right side it's more of the same.





There is a soffit coming loose and it was sealed with foam. I also see a slight gap between the flashing and the stucco which I think is where the water may be getting in.








If I get real close to feel around I also see silicone caulk, and some dried up cracking tar, so I think it's been a problem for a while and repeat attempts to fix the leak.


What is the proper way to correct this?
 

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
The flashing is not done right but really how much water would sneak up and get in from below, I think the leak is the valley above this where the roofs meet




 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
@Nealtw, thank you.


In looking at the first video you linked, they installed a counter flashing over the original flashing. The counterflashing goes up higher on the wall. By doing so there is no need to tear up the cement tiles just need to remove the stucco/lath on the wall, place counter flashing, install new lath and restucco?


There is a lot of water coming down these two edges. Here is a view from the top where the two roofs come together on one side, the other side is the same but mirror image.



As you can see, the higher roof is dropping everything from the crown down to that edge, and there is a valley higher up that also lead to that spot. So when it rains it's a lot of water passing through these two edges. Installing a gutter along the fascia of the higher roof would potentially reduce the amount of water splashing down from the higher roof, but may not solve the fundamental problem that's been there for a while and went through multiple attempts of sealing and patching.


What I have is very similar to the second picture you linked.


It would be interesting to see how high the water is against that flashing during a heavy rain storm, whether there is enough water ponded on the wall similar to how you have several inches of water ponded up on the low side of a street against the curbing during rain even though all the water is still flowing to the catch basin.



Even with a gutter taking the water from the higher roof would reduce the water coming down there, but won't impede the flow from the higher valley. May be a tear out of the stucco and the first row of tiles against the wall to expose the bad flashing is evitable, but I am not sure what is the correct way to seal and finish where the eave/soffit converge, it can't be just shoving some wire cloth and large quantities of spray foam right?
 

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
@Nealtw , thank you.


In looking at the first video you linked, they installed a counter flashing over the original flashing. The counterflashing goes up higher on the wall. By doing so there is no need to tear up the cement tiles just need to remove the stucco/lath on the wall, place counter flashing, install new lath and restucco?


There is a lot of water coming down these two edges. Here is a view from the top where the two roofs come together on one side, the other side is the same but mirror image.



As you can see, the higher roof is dropping everything from the crown down to that edge, and there is a valley higher up that also lead to that spot. So when it rains it's a lot of water passing through these two edges. Installing a gutter along the fascia of the higher roof would potentially reduce the amount of water splashing down from the higher roof, but may not solve the fundamental problem that's been there for a while and went through multiple attempts of sealing and patching.


What I have is very similar to the second picture you linked.


It would be interesting to see how high the water is against that flashing during a heavy rain storm, whether there is enough water ponded on the wall similar to how you have several inches of water ponded up on the low side of a street against the curbing during rain even though all the water is still flowing to the catch basin.



Even with a gutter taking the water from the higher roof would reduce the water coming down there, but won't impede the flow from the higher valley. May be a tear out of the stucco and the first row of tiles against the wall to expose the bad flashing is evitable, but I am not sure what is the correct way to seal and finish where the eave/soffit converge, it can't be just shoving some wire cloth and large quantities of spray foam right?
This what I think you need.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
This what I think you need.

So the idea is one of diverting as much water away from that area.


The flow from the valley is split into two, one side is directed at an angle away from the edge, the other side runs into the beginning of a gutter?


Interesting.


In order to install a diverting channel like this, I have to tear up the tiles on both sides of the existing valley to install this thing - I assume this is made of metal (perhaps aluminum or galvanized steel?) and install it like a flashing?


Or can this be done with some sort of a "dam" at the end of the valley so the flow from the valley is directed away?


I like the idea of gutters along the two sides, but I can also see some complications installing a standard gutter near where the two roofs converge and the wall narrows to zero. May need a custom field formed section there?


I still need to fix the existing wall, soffit, and the foam filled wire cloth mess right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I have another crazy thought, probably not practical, but how difficult/expensive is it to have a custom metal flashing made?


This is the troublesome wall/roof interface. One on each side pretty much mirror image of each other.






If I tear off a row of tiles next to the wall on the lower roof only, and remove whatever caulk, silicone, tar, wire cloth, foam, bad flashing, cracked stucco etc etc etc...


This is a sketch of the cross section of what we are dealing with. The height of the wall tapers from like 18" to nothing.





What if I made a sheet metal that covers the 8" to 10" of the lower roof deck, up the wall, across the soffit, and tucked up the existing drip edge of the upper roof? Something like this in cross section.





In a perspective view, a single piece of metal like this.





Then put a layer of membrane back on the lower roof, over the bottom of this metal, then the tiles. The upper lip to be tucked under the upper roof drip edge.


Is something like this be "bullet proof" against water penetration and animal proof. I can still put in something Nealtw suggested to divert water away.


Or have I gone off the deep end LOL?
 

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
So the idea is one of diverting as much water away from that area.


The flow from the valley is split into two, one side is directed at an angle away from the edge, the other side runs into the beginning of a gutter?


Interesting.


In order to install a diverting channel like this, I have to tear up the tiles on both sides of the existing valley to install this thing - I assume this is made of metal (perhaps aluminum or galvanized steel?) and install it like a flashing?


Or can this be done with some sort of a "dam" at the end of the valley so the flow from the valley is directed away?


I like the idea of gutters along the two sides, but I can also see some complications installing a standard gutter near where the two roofs converge and the wall narrows to zero. May need a custom field formed section there?


I still need to fix the existing wall, soffit, and the foam filled wire cloth mess right?

I am not a roofer but I have worked with plenty and have changed lots of framing to fit there needs.


The gutter doesn't pick up water there and runs down hill a little, away from that area. What it does do is hide the end of the valley flashing.
With shingle roof that gets sheeting we leave a hole in the top of that angle and blunt the end of the apex

Tricky to draw pictures
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gibralt...-W-Valley-Flashing-in-Black-10464-1/202530021
 

Attachments

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
I have another crazy thought, probably not practical, but how difficult/expensive is it to have a custom metal flashing made?


This is the troublesome wall/roof interface. One on each side pretty much mirror image of each other.






If I tear off a row of tiles next to the wall on the lower roof only, and remove whatever caulk, silicone, tar, wire cloth, foam, bad flashing, cracked stucco etc etc etc...


This is a sketch of the cross section of what we are dealing with. The height of the wall tapers from like 18" to nothing.





What if I made a sheet metal that covers the 8" to 10" of the lower roof deck, up the wall, across the soffit, and tucked up the existing drip edge of the upper roof? Something like this in cross section.





In a perspective view, a single piece of metal like this.





Then put a layer of membrane back on the lower roof, over the bottom of this metal, then the tiles. The upper lip to be tucked under the upper roof drip edge.


Is something like this be "bullet proof" against water penetration and animal proof. I can still put in something Nealtw suggested to divert water away.


Or have I gone off the deep end LOL?
You would still need the venting for the high roof

this would be the cover flashing, you would still need the step flashing under the tile and wouldn't have to be one piece.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I am not a roofer but I have worked with plenty and have changed lots of framing to fit there needs.

The gutter doesn't pick up water there and runs down hill a little, away from that area. What it does do is hide the end of the valley flashing.
With shingle roof that gets sheeting we leave a hole in the top of that angle and blunt the end of the apex

Tricky to draw pictures
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gibralt...-W-Valley-Flashing-in-Black-10464-1/202530021

Thank you again Nealtw, I see your point about making a blunt end of that triangle. I tried to visualize the hole you mentioned but I can't picture where that hole would be. Would the hole be made on the underside of the soffit of the higher roof before that wedged area is covered to make the blunt end?
 

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
Thank you again Nealtw, I see your point about making a blunt end of that triangle. I tried to visualize the hole you mentioned but I can't picture where that hole would be. Would the hole be made on the underside of the soffit of the higher roof before that wedged area is covered to make the blunt end?
If you have ventilation under the lower roof you would want air to be able to get up into the bay that that little blunt wall would cut off.
so if you were in the lower attic you would be able to see up on the high side of that blunt wall but air can likely get there anyway so maybe just don't worry about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,704 Posts
Glanced over the posts and saw gutter mentioned. I don't see gutter there so it is gutter-less roof? Probably better not to put gutter there. Skip the wedge shaped area and start the gutter away from there.

Also to check if the step flashings are the problem, wedge a cardboard against the flashing wall and see if it leaks.
I think the problem may be cement tile roof with big gaps and maybe the tarpaper underneath may be failing? Relatively small step flashings also don't help. I think that area probably should have the tiles removed and the whole area flashed with ice shield or more robust flashing materials. Step flashing can be skipped if you cover larger area with rolls and take it up the wall as well. Seal the overlap joints with good caulk for extra insurance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Glanced over the posts and saw gutter mentioned. I don't see gutter there so it is gutter-less roof? Probably better not to put gutter there. Skip the wedge shaped area and start the gutter away from there.

Also to check if the step flashings are the problem, wedge a cardboard against the flashing wall and see if it leaks.
I think the problem may be cement tile roof with big gaps and maybe the tarpaper underneath may be failing? Relatively small step flashings also don't help. I think that area probably should have the tiles removed and the whole area flashed with ice shield or more robust flashing materials. Step flashing can be skipped if you cover larger area with rolls and take it up the wall as well. Seal the overlap joints with good caulk for extra insurance.

Right now the leak is not too bad. The leak only happens during driving rain. I am concerned about hurricanes which threatens us in south florida every year. When we have storms the rain goes sideways. That triangle area gets flow from the valley, then the higher roof comes down with a sheet of water, I think it is a good idea to divert some of that if possible.


I wouldn't even rule out when the higher roof water comes down that water wouldn't hit the lower roof tiles and splashes up into the vent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
If you have ventilation under the lower roof you would want air to be able to get up into the bay that that little blunt wall would cut off.
so if you were in the lower attic you would be able to see up on the high side of that blunt wall but air can likely get there anyway so maybe just don't worry about it.

I revised the sketch, is this where you could put that hole (IN BLUE COLOR) in order to get ventilation into that dead triangular pocket?





Another thought just came to me, which would divert water off at the bottom of the valley, as well as the sliver portion of the triangle, is to use two L shaped aluminum angles, attached to just the concrete tiles. The left one would divert all the valley flows towards the middle field tiles, and the right one would divert the flow further to the right, to the relocated blunt end where a gutter can be attached. This seems easy to do and may reduce a lot of the water passing through that area?


 

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
I revised the sketch, is this where you could put that hole (IN BLUE COLOR) in order to get ventilation into that dead triangular pocket?





Another thought just came to me, which would divert water off at the bottom of the valley, as well as the sliver portion of the triangle, is to use two L shaped aluminum angles, attached to just the concrete tiles. The left one would divert all the valley flows towards the middle field tiles, and the right one would divert the flow further to the right, to the relocated blunt end where a gutter can be attached. This seems easy to do and may reduce a lot of the water passing through that area?
Heat comes off the top of the wall in the winter and that causes ice dams so having cool air venting above the insulation moves and cool the warmth.



I have drawn in the rafter and where you would like to have air movement.

The black area would be a hole in the lower roof to allow air up into this cavity and into the rafter bay above.



I am not sure the hole would be absolutely needed as there would be some movement between rafter bays 2 and 3.
 

Attachments

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
With out knowing where the leak is, this would be a crap shoot and may cause other problems.


It looks like you have a valley flashing maybe a lead one, perhaps that could just be extended anther foot to get passed the corner.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,609 Posts
The pictures in your first posting indicate a quite poorly finished or deteriorated structure.
Nealtw has given you a deal of useful advice.

His most recent remark of "It looks like you have a valley flashing maybe a lead one, perhaps that could just be extended anther foot to get passed the corner." seems to me to be an excellent suggestion.

You have stated that the problem occurs "only during driving rain".

If you can find a way to add extra lead sheet to extend any "valley" down further (even 500 mm rather than 300 mm), so that the water from the roof ridges exits at a lower point, you may be able to have the storm water drain at a point lower than that where it is now blown back to enter any remaining "building defects" - which, of course, you should repair.

The cost of lead sheet can sometimes seem rather high.
However, it has been used to good effect since Roman times, it is quite easy to work with and I can state from my own experience that, used appropriately and over a sufficient area, it works.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
With out knowing where the leak is, this would be a crap shoot and may cause other problems.


It looks like you have a valley flashing maybe a lead one, perhaps that could just be extended anther foot to get passed the corner.

I am not sure what type of flashing it is I do know it's metal. I doubt it's lead, and there is a layer of asphalt membrane over that metal.



I can extend it further down, but it's so shallow it once it go past the current end of the valley it may not have the capacity to "channel" any water if it's just the depth of a tile. I think it will be not matter in heavy rain. There are certainly many options now thanks to your suggestions. I would definitely blunt up the slivered area and try to flash most of it. I have to think more about the gutter options.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,512 Posts
Discussion Starter #19

Nealtw, I watched this video and it's very helpful. Thank you.


However, I don't quite understand. In the video they removed the slate covering on the roof. Under that are the rafters. There is no waterproofing membrane:vs_shocked:, there is no roof deck:vs_shocked:. How is that possible? This can't be leak proof?
 

·
retired framer
Joined
·
44,288 Posts
Nealtw, I watched this video and it's very helpful. Thank you.


However, I don't quite understand. In the video they removed the slate covering on the roof. Under that are the rafters. There is no waterproofing membrane:vs_shocked:, there is no roof deck:vs_shocked:. How is that possible? This can't be leak proof?
That is the way it was done for hundreds of years. Craftsmanship.
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top