[justplumducky]

On the right bank in the panel picture attached, the bottom double pole 15A breaker is only getting power on its top pole because there is no lug on the panel for the bottom breaker pole to attach to...

So what I'd like to do is replace the right bank 2nd breaker down from top with a tandem 20/15 breaker, then remove the 3rd 15A breaker below the tandem in order to make room for moving the DP 30 & DP 15 up one notch (one lug), so the bottom DP 15 will then connect two lugs for 240v.

So my question is if this is OK, when wouldn't it be OK? Assuming the wires are reconnected to the tandem correctly, what are other considerations that would prohibit such reconfig-ing like this? Unless the answer requires a complicated or convoluted answer, happy with only the short version.

 

[seharper]

Yeah, that's fine as long as

a) the circuits being double-stuffed each have their own neutrals, and

b) there isn't some Code reason why your installation *at the time it was installed* needed GFCI or AFCI on those circuits.

What you really need is a bigger panel, though.

 

[afjes2015]

The number one thing you must do first is to determine by the brand and model of the breaker panel if in fact the panel is rated to use tandem breakers. Even if a tandem does happen to fit the panel must be rated for tandems to be used. Also, some panels that do accept tandem breakers may only be used in certain positions.


Do you have a model number for the panel?

 

[Jim Port]

As post #3 says the panel needs to be listed for tandems. It is not as simple as post #2 says.

 

[CodeMatters]

There's likely a label on the inside of the cover that includes info
on restrictions to tandem use.


As a side note, any panel sold in Canada must accept tandems
(listed for that panel) in every position. Sensible.

 

[justplumducky]

There's likely a label on the inside of the cover that includes info
on restrictions to tandem use.

As a side note, any panel sold in Canada must accept tandems
(listed for that panel) in every position. Sensible.

Lable pics attached.

 

[RAL238]

Your panel is has 12 spaces for breakers that can support up to 20 circuits. That means not all breaker positions can support a tandem breaker. The positions that allow a tandem have a notched bus stab. See the diagram in the top right corner of the label.

In your panel, 8 positions allow a tandem, and 4 do not. My guess is that it's probably the lower positions that allow the tandems.


Tandem breakers for your panel would be Type BRD.

 

[surferdude2]

:biggrin2:Looks like one of my former helpers did that.

 

[seharper]

The number one thing you must do first is to determine by the brand and model of the breaker panel if in fact the panel is rated to use tandem breakers. Even if a tandem does happen to fit the panel must be rated for tandems to be used. Also, some panels that do accept tandem breakers may only be used in certain positions.

Noted, but you're talking about CTL. I'm pretty sure CTL limitations (which are basically there to keep you from putting >42 circuits in a panel) were repealed in 2011 or 2014.

So why are they relevant today?

 

[justplumducky]

:biggrin2:Looks like one of my former helpers did that.

Panel was installed Autumn of 2018, and was told there was room for expansion. Extra knockouts indeed, but didn't remove cover and check.

So, in view of the following post, do I still have to look for notched bus stabs for the tandem breaker? Well, guess I would because that's what the panel says, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afjes2015 View Post
The number one thing you must do first is to determine by the brand and model of the breaker panel if in fact the panel is rated to use tandem breakers. Even if a tandem does happen to fit the panel must be rated for tandems to be used. Also, some panels that do accept tandem breakers may only be used in certain positions.

seharper>> Noted, but you're talking about CTL. I'm pretty sure CTL limitations (which are basically there to keep you from putting >42 circuits in a panel) were repealed in 2011 or 2014.

So why are they relevant today?
-------------------------------------

 

[seharper]

Are you free to use non-CTL breakers in non-CTL spaces, now that CTL has been repealed? Honestly that's a heck of a question. I don't see why not, but others disagree. On one hand the purpose is for a Code that's no longer relevant, on the other hand NEC 110.3B.

But here's the thing about 110.3B. I don't feel like the Eaton panel is telling you a darn thing. The top sticker is so generic it could be on a 48-space panel, and probably is. The side sticker gives us absolutely no guidance whatsoever except to say "1220" which lets those of us familiar with Eaton model number conventions know the panel was intended (in the CTL age) to be 12 space/20 circuit. We then *infer* that the intent was 8 double-stuffable spaces and 4 non-... and then we infer from past experience that the CTL spaces are on the bottom. But nothing is actually saying this.

As for ability to use non-CTL breakers, I see nothing prohibiting that. Where does it say "don't use a BR2020"?

SMH, it's a hot mess. And I half wonder if it's a hot mess because Eaton revised it to accommodate the repeal of CTL, in some obtuse way that UL would accept without forcing them to relist the panels.

 

[Oso954]

They did not remove the CTL limitations.
In 2008, they removed the maximum number of breakers which was 42.

Today, the limit on breakers is whatever the MFG says it is. But the it is still a CTL panel utilizing differently shaped stabs for standard breakers versus those stabs (often notched) that will accept Tandems or Quad breakers.

It still a code violation to install a non-CTL breaker (made for replacement use in a pre 1965 panel) in a CTL panel.

https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2018/6/what-is-the-maximum-number-of-circuit-breakers-allowed-in-an-electric-panel.html

 

[Jim Port]

Non-ctl breakers are for replacement use only.

In order to install more than 42 breakers the panel would need to be listed for that use. There are panels listed as 40/80 that use listed tandems.

The wiring diagram will show exactly which space can use tandems.

 

[justplumducky]

Your panel is has 12 spaces for breakers that can support up to 20 circuits. That means not all breaker positions can support a tandem breaker. The positions that allow a tandem have a notched bus stab. See the diagram in the top right corner of the label.

In your panel, 8 positions allow a tandem, and 4 do not. My guess is that it's probably the lower positions that allow the tandems.


Tandem breakers for your panel would be Type BRD.

You are correct. There are 4 notched bus stabs at the lower end. Why at the lower end vs upper?

 

[surferdude2]

You are correct. There are 4 notched bus stabs at the lower end. Why at the lower end vs upper?

That spreads the stab contact heat to the farthest distance from the main, which is the coolest part of the bus and best able to tolerate the concentrated heat from a double stab.

 

[afjes2015]

.


justplumducky:


The main thing that the experienced persons replying to this post are telling you is again - the main thing to know is if the panel is in fact rated to use tandem breakers.


The big reason is because the panel has been tested and approved by UL as it is manufactured. If you use the panel in any fashion not approved according to the panel specs and there is an issue in the future such as a fire your home owners insurance company will more than likely deny your claim.

.

 

[rjniles]

.


justplumducky:


The main thing that the experienced persons replying to this post are telling you is again - the main thing to know is if the panel is in fact rated to use tandem breakers.


The big reason is because the panel has been tested and approved by UL as it is manufactured. If you use the panel in any fashion not approved according to the panel specs and there is an issue in the future such as a fire your home owners insurance company will more than likely deny your claim.

.

Sorry but that last statement is a false urban myth.

Sent from my RCT6A03W13E using Tapatalk

 

[afjes2015]

Sorry but that last statement is a false urban myth.

Sent from my RCT6A03W13E using Tapatalk

Really RJ? Honestly I did not know that (No sarcasm implied). I would assume you are referring to the insurance section of my post?

 

[surferdude2]

With the exception a proven act of criminal intent, the insurance company can't prevail on denying any claim for covered situations or equipment.

 

[afjes2015]

With the exception a proven act of criminal intent, the insurance company can't prevail on denying any claim for covered situations or equipment.

This is very interesting and good to know. Thank you.