DIY Home Improvement Forum banner

Weird things going on

532 Views 29 Replies 9 Participants Last post by  hornetd
Back story... when i bought my home (1956 model) 5 years ago. the foyer light and the doorbell worked fine.

Now... so i replaced the foyer light fixture with an LED fixture and now the light doesnt turn of completely. It dims down a little bit but it still is on.(swapped 3 diff fixtures with same results. Swapped light switch too)

Now to the doorbell. When the light is off/dim and you ring the bell, the light turns fully on and the bell rings. But if the light is on the bell doesn't work. I have replaced the doorbell transformer thinking it could be bad and back feeding to the light. No change.
21 - 30 of 30 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
729 Posts
Tom, thank you for the time you took to reply. I think i understand what you're trying to tell me. Since this house was built in 1956 it is all 2 wire copper cable. The circuit is a single cable supplying 5 boxes. The doorbell transformer isn't attached to a box. It was simply screwed to a ceiling joist. From what i could see when i was up there, it is spliced into the cable just before the box with my problem light. It is heavily wrapped in old cloth tape. I'll go back up tomorrow and try to get a better look. And maybe a picture or 2. Again thank you and every one else for all the help.
Remember that we need to know how many CABLES are connected to the lighting outlet box with the malfunctioning LED Light AND how many cables are connected to the switch box were the light switch for that light is located. That will tell us a lot and reduce the guess work.

Tom Horne
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Remember that we need to know how many CABLES are connected to the lighting outlet box with the malfunctioning LED Light AND how many cables are connected to the switch box were the light switch for that light is located. That will tell us a lot and reduce the guess work.

Tom Horne

First things first, Tom Horne, apparently God loves me. It is solid copper wire.

3 cables going into box. 1 for the feed in, 1 out to next box, and 1 to the switch. After "Crawling" around the 4 foot tall attic thru 2 feet of insulation i found the feed wire for the transformer and it was wired in with the cable going to the light switch. No reason why. Removed it and capped off the wires and the light works as it should. I then ran a new cable to the doorbell transformer from another junction box and it now works as it should. The only reason i can think of why this wasn't happening before i switched to led is because incandescent bulbs need more power to light. I used 12/2 Romex wire, proper wire caps and electrical tape. I used strain reliefs in the boxes to prevent the wires from being pulled out. Thank you everyone for all the great information and help. Greatly appreciated.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Tom Horne

First things first, Tom Horne, apparently God loves me. It is solid copper wire.

3 cables going into box. 1 for the feed in, 1 out to next box, and 1 to the switch. After "Crawling" around the 4 foot tall attic thru 2 feet of insulation i found the feed wire for the transformer and it was wired in with the cable going to the light switch. No reason why. Removed it and capped off the wires and the light works as it should. I then ran a new cable to the doorbell transformer from another junction box and it now works as it should. The only reason i can think of why this wasn't happening before i switched to led is because incandescent bulbs need more power to light. I used 12/2 Romex wire, proper wire caps and electrical tape. I used strain reliefs in the boxes to prevent the wires from being pulled out. Thank you everyone for all the great information and help. Greatly appreciated.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
729 Posts
Tom Horne

First things first, Tom Horne, apparently God loves me. It is solid copper wire.

3 cables going into box. 1 for the feed in, 1 out to next box, and 1 to the switch. After "Crawling" around the 4 foot tall attic thru 2 feet of insulation i found the feed wire for the transformer and it was wired in with the cable going to the light switch. No reason why. Removed it and capped off the wires and the light works as it should. I then ran a new cable to the doorbell transformer from another junction box and it now works as it should. The only reason i can think of why this wasn't happening before i switched to led is because incandescent bulbs need more power to light. I used 12/2 Romex wire, proper wire caps and electrical tape. I used strain reliefs in the boxes to prevent the wires from being pulled out. Thank you everyone for all the great information and help. Greatly appreciated.
Well that reads like it was no fun at all! I have one more detail that you need to take care of. You may end up cursing me thoroughly for not remembering to tell you this earlier. The wire leads that are part of the transformer are supposed to be spliced to the wires of the cable supplying them inside an electrical box. If you look carefully at the transformer you may find a mounting mechanism that allows you to attach it to 1/2 inch knock out so that the transformers supply wires come out of the transformer were it is directly on the knockout so that they end up inside the electrical box.
Font Gas Cable Electric blue Machine
Hood Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Gas Vehicle door
Automotive lighting Circuit component Gas Technology Cable
Gas Bicycle part Wood Machine Metal

The 1st one on the left is held in the knockout by the screw. 2nd is how it is held in the knockout by the screw. 3rd is held onto the knockout by a locknut. 4th is how it looks when mounted to the outside of the box with its primary wires on the inside through the knockout. Only the small doorbell wires can be connected or spliced outside of an electrical box.

The supply cable goes into the box through a cable clamp approved for that type of cable. Non Metallic cable jacket must extend inside the box for 1/2 inch beyond the clamp. The wires will need to have ≥ 6 inches of wire beyond the end of the cable jacket. The wires must be able to extend ≥ 4 inches beyond the box opening. Connect the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) to the box itself. If the transformer has a green lead wire splice a jumper in with the EGC from the cable and the green lead from the transformer. The jumper goes to a green screw in the box itself.Connect one of the transformers lead wires to each of the insulated wires in the cable. Gently fold the splices back inside the box and install the cover. The reason for having a box is to contain the products of an arcing fault or connection long enough for the fuse or circuit breaker to open and de-energize the fault before it ignites a fire.

Tom Horne
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Well that reads like it was no fun at all! I have one more detail that you need to take care of. You may end up cursing me thoroughly for not remembering to tell you this earlier. The wire leads that are part of the transformer are supposed to be spliced to the wires of the cable supplying them inside an electrical box. If you look carefully at the transformer you may find a mounting mechanism that allows you to attach it to 1/2 inch knock out so that the transformers supply wires come out of the transformer were it is directly on the knockout so that they end up inside the electrical box.
View attachment 728200 View attachment 728206 View attachment 728201 View attachment 728198
The 1st one on the left is held in the knockout by the screw. 2nd is how it is held in the knockout by the screw. 3rd is held onto the knockout by a locknut. 4th is how it looks when mounted to the outside of the box with its primary wires on the inside through the knockout. Only the small doorbell wires can be connected or spliced outside of an electrical box.

The supply cable goes into the box through a cable clamp approved for that type of cable. Non Metallic cable jacket must extend inside the box for 1/2 inch beyond the clamp. The wires will need to have ≥ 6 inches of wire beyond the end of the cable jacket. The wires must be able to extend ≥ 4 inches beyond the box opening. Connect the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) to the box itself. If the transformer has a green lead wire splice a jumper in with the EGC from the cable and the green lead from the transformer. The jumper goes to a green screw in the box itself.Connect one of the transformers lead wires to each of the insulated wires in the cable. Gently fold the splices back inside the box and install the cover. The reason for having a box is to contain the products of an arcing fault or connection long enough for the fuse or circuit breaker to open and de-energize the fault before it ignites a fire.

Tom Horne
When i ran the new cable i did put in a new junction box and attached the transformer thru the knockout just like the 4th image.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
729 Posts
When i ran the new cable i did put in a new junction box and attached the transformer thru the knockout just like the 4th image.
Oh good. Your careful execution of the rewiring saves me from being a total goat; with apologies to goats everywhere. I was afraid that I had failed to react quickly enough to your stating that the transformer had been attached to a rafter rather than a box.

The reason that some doorbell transformers still have mounting flanges on them is a leftover from knob and tube wiring that was carried forward to accommodate the mounting of such transformers in low voltage wiring cabinets. In modern control cabinet wiring such cabinets are fitted with a divider between the medium voltage; 50 - 1000 volts; supplies and the low voltage; ≤ 50 volts; power for the controls.

Be advised I deliberately used the voltage categories that are found in the US National Electric Code (NFPA Standard 70).

SYSTEMS
0-49 . . Low Distribution
50-1000 . . Medium Distribution
1000 & up . . High Distribution

That is not because these categories are somehow universally correct because they are certainly not universal in their applicability to all electrical systems. For electricians, As distinct from Lineman 1000 volts is generally used as the break over between voltages which every electrician can be expected to know how to install and maintain and work were the electrical workers that work with those voltages in premise wiring systems are considered specialists. I just find this set of voltage ranges more useful for premise wiring systems and especially so when advising DIY folks.

I am fully aware that those engaged in Utility distribution and transmission work may not find these categories useful because they would never have to work on such voltages on the Line Side of Service Transformers. I think that is of no concern in the context of DIY electrical installation, repair, and additions to premises wiring systems in dwellings. I would add a subcategory to medium; perhaps medium residential; that would cap that voltage range at 150 volts to ground. Although the US NEC does not say it in so many words the implication of it's wording is that 150 volts to ground is the highest voltage that should be used in any portion of a building that has provisions for sleeping. Some examples of that limit is in the voltages permitted for use in dormitory and guest room spaces.
The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!

Tom Horne
 
21 - 30 of 30 Posts
Top