[harryhh]

They always say they want the details so here they are.

I live in a small apartment building of 5 apartments. It's single story, on a concrete slab, and the 5 apartments are all in a row with a laundry room at one end. It looks like a small old time motel, each apartment having it's own door to the outside. I don't know too much about the plumbing, but, water comes in to the center apartment, on one meter, and goes out to the other apartments. I know less about the waste pipes, but each apartment has it's own stack pipe and I sometimes think I hear water from another apartment running in the waste pipe.

I've lived here for more than 4.5 years. The toilet has always rocked just a little, but not a problem. About 1 year ago I noticed the water in the toilet bowl was about a half inch lower than it used to be. (Also, for the last few months the toilet quit rocking, but I can push it a little and it will rock.) We've had unusually high winds here for many months and I've noticed that a very high wind (40+??) can drop the water in the bowl a little more.

If I flush the toilet the water in the bowl will come up to where it is supposed to be, but in less than a minute it will drop half an inch. I don't hear dripping though. Since the water drops quickly after every flush I don't believe it has anything to do with wind.

Anyway, what might have caused the water in the bowl to drop?

I can replace the wax ring and I can fix the rocking with perhaps a little advice on how to do that on that shinny vinyl flooring.

 

[joecaption]

It's a rental, call the owner.
No way should a toilet "rock"!!
If it does it's going to leak at the wax ring.
Not even sure where that high winds would come into play.
Leaking flapper valve? Simple enough to check, add some red food coloring to the tank, shows up in the bowl the flappers leaking.
We have no idea what type fill valve you have and no pictures, so hard to tell you how to adjust it.

 

[jmon]

Could be a possible venting issue or a hairline crack in the toilet bowl. Just guesses.

As Joe recommended, complain to the landlord first, let him/her know about the issue. No reason a toilet should be rocking.

 

[harryhh]

Thanks guys.

I dislike lthe landlord in my apartment and I usually do my own repairs and charge them for the parts. They like that because there is no labor charge. (Simply a matter of privacy.)

( I've seen the water sucked out of a toilet bowl before. My sister lives on the 4th floor of a 12 story condo. A few times a year on very high winds, it will suck perhaps an inch out of the toilet bowl.)

I'm not really concerned about the slight rocking which I can fix easily. I only mentioned it in case it might have something to do with the problem of low water in the bowl.

The low water in the bowl causes some minor problem in keeping the bowl clean, (if you know what I mean) so I want to get that fixed.

If I understand it, the bottom half of a toilet is built similar to a trap under a sink. The height of the water in the bowl is determined by the height of the trap. ( Correct me if I'm wrong.) So, I'm having difficulty in seeing how the water in the bowl can always be less than it used to be. I can see where the seal at the wax ring may be bad because of the rocking, but I can't see where that can cause the water to go down. Since the water goes down within a minute after every flush, it's not the wind.

A crack somewhere letting the water go down sounds like the most likely thing so far.

Before I take the toilet up to replace the seal and fix the rocking, does anyone know another reason for low water in the bowl other than a crack?

 

[jeffmattero76]

If there is a crack in the bowl you would see eater on the floor.

To stop the rocking, simply tighten the two nuts on either side of ghe toilet where it meets the floor. Be careful and only tighten them enough to stop the rocking.if you crank down on them you risk cracking the toilet.

High winds can cause the water to go down. I forget what the principle is called but it works the same as a windex bottle. Air across the top of a tube (your vent stack) creates negative pressure in the tube and eater will get sucked in.

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[AllanJ]

Rocking of the toilet and water level too low are two completely separate topics.

Water level coming up to the correct level and then noticeably going down has a differnet reason from water never making it to the correct level.

Reasonable worst case, there is a crack in the toilet inside where water leaks out of the bowl just after a flushl until the level gets to half an inch below normal. The level stops dropping when it is low enough to not reach the crack. (Then wind may suck the level down even more.)

Reasonable best case, the thin tube from the refill mechanism to the overflow channel in the tank has come loose so additional water is not going into the bowl during the refill so as to hide some additional suction of water from the bowl as the previous flush water made its way down the drain pipe and the drain pipe vent stack up above was clogged.

Tightening the bolts is the wrong way to cure rocking and will put more stresses on the toilet and cause more cracking.

Since the toilet has rocked, it needs to be taken up anyway and the old wax ring removed. Then a test fit done with shims around the edges so the bowl does not rock and does not touch the flange but not so far up that a wax ring does not fill the gap. Then a new wax ring must be installed.

While the toilet is removed you can see whether the floor underneath has rotted due to water going down around the flange rather than coming out where you can see it.

 

[SPS-1]

In his fourth paragraph, Allen was referring to what is called here as "Bowl Fill Tube" It should be running into the top of the overflow tube.

 

[harryhh]

Thanks AllenJ,

I didn't think the rocking could cause this problem, but I wanted to mention it just in case.

The fill tube is in the center stand pipe, and the bowl fills very well. In fact, it over fills and is overflowing the trap for a few seconds before the shutoff valve in the tank finally shuts off. The water in the bowl comes up to maximum height like I used to see it a year ago. When the tank shuts off, in less than a minute the water in the bowl drops half an inch.

It seems we're down to a crack in the toilet or some kind of suction.

I suppose the only way to fix a crack in the toilet is to replace it.

If there is some kind of suction issue that would cause the water to drop quickly every time, I suppose that could be it. Is there some way to check or verify this venting or suction issue? Can I put something down the stack pipe to check for a blockage?

Thanks,
Harry

 

[jeffmattero76]

After a flush, when the tank refills, does the water level in the tank ( not the bowl) go higher than the overflow pipe in the tank? If so that is likely your problem. The water in the tank is supposed to stop ehen the water level is about one inch below the top of that pipe. Adjust your float to do that and let us know what happens.

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[jeffmattero76]

Also what do you mean by "overflowing the trap?" On a toilet the trap is part of the bowl. If you look at the side of the bowl you will see it molded into the ceramic. Since it is inside the toilet i dont understand how you could see "water overflowing the trap".

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[harryhh]

Hello Jeff,

On my toilets, I like a good strong flush, so I adjust the water to fill to about 1/8 inch from the top of the stand pipe in the center of the tank. I just checked and this is what it is doing. It does not overflow the stand pipe.

What I mean by overflowing the trap.
As you know, the water in the bowl can only go so high. It gets to its maximum height and any more water put in the bowl will flow over the trap. When my bowl gets to its maximum fill, the tank is still filling for a few more seconds. That extra water going into the bowl can't fill any higher and is overflowing the trap.

Does that make sense?

 

[jeffmattero76]

I would suggest adjusting the water level in the tank temporarily to stop 1 inch below the top of the overflow pipe, flush the toilet and see if it still happens.

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[harryhh]

Hi jeffmattero76,

I'm afraid that adjusting the level in the tank didn't stop the problem. The water in the bowl still comes up to it's proper level, then in less than a minute it drops a half inch.

 

[jmon]

I was hoping that was the issue.

I know in post 4, you stated you don't like your landlord and dealing with landlords can be tricky. He/she will probably say there are no visible signs of leaks and the toilet is flushing properly, leave it alone. As a renter, you shouldn't have to pay for a new toilet if one is needed.

If you do move forward with your decision to fix it yourself anyway, get his/her permission first, just in case you find further issues that need addressing or you cause another issue. Just a suggestion.

You would have to pull the toilet to investigate further. Remember to get new wax rings.

 

[jeffmattero76]

Hi jeffmattero76,

I'm afraid that adjusting the level in the tank didn't stop the problem. The water in the bowl still comes up to it's proper level, then in less than a minute it drops a half inch.

Then I am at a loss. If there was a crack in the toilet i dont understand why you are not seeing water anywhere. If and when you figure it out please post what the problem was. Sorry i cant be more help.

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[harryhh]

Thanks Jmon,

I get along with my landlords, the company that owns the building, very well. The issue is a matter of privacy and complicated.

I could write pages, but to keep it short.

I live in low income housing. I pay about half the rent, and the government pays the other half. Renters have the right to privacy in their homes just as everyone else has. Most states call it something like 'legal custody of the property.' The government, because they are the government, (and low income people have little power and often don't know their rights) tends to ignore peoples right to privacy. The government tends to act as though they can go into the low income renters home at almost any time.

As is said, and is shown through history, those who do not stand up for their rights, will lose their rights. On this matter, I tend to stand up for my right to privacy.

I have no battles with the landlords over this, and they understand I like my privacy.

I usually do the repairs in my apartment when I can, and do things around the apartment building. Such as now I'm doing a little landscaping and some gutter repair. I only charge the landlord for parts so they like me for this. Plus, I don't work and this gives me something to do.

I always ask permission to do the work and let them know the approximate cost. I also let them know what I think is the likelihood of additional costs. The landload gets along fine with this, and I make a small point for myself and others about the right to privacy.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
As for the toilet issue, I am starting to think that the 3 years of slight rocking has caused a crack somewhere that allows the water to drop a little. If that's the case I'm going to drop the issue for now and start a new thread about fixing the rocking.

If anyone thinks it may have something to do with suction or anything else, please let me know. I am willing to go on the roof to unclog a vent pipe if necessary.

Thanks for the hlep folks,
Harry

 

[harryhh]

Thanks for trying jeffmattero76,

I suppose it could still be some kind of suction problem, but I'm beginning to doubt it. I think the most likely thing is that the rocking, even though slight, has caused a crack. (Guess I should have fixed that but I never really worried about it.)

Perhaps the reason I'm not seeing water is that our apartment building is single story and on a concrete slab. I, and all of us are on the ground floor. The water that is leaking must go right down the hole for the waste pipe and into the ground. Something like that.

Since I'm the only person in the apartment, maybe the toilet isn't flushed enough to allow the ground to become waterlogged and backup onto the floor below the toilet.

Unless there are more ideas about the leak, I'm going to look into fixing the rocking and take care of that.