[braves22]

Hey guys....


Thought maybe someone could help me here....



I'm looking at replacing a couple flush mount ceiling lights with fans that I am bringing in from a couple other bedrooms that already had ceiling fans....


The thing I am looking at is the rooms I am putting them in only have single switch outlets.....


They however have multiple sets of cables behind the wall and because it is a new home, I am curious as to maybe they setup the wiring so that I could add outlets or what have you in the future if needed.


My question as I finally get to it is, how can I figure out where the seemingly pigtailed wires are going to as I would like to at least figure out how to hook up the new fans where I can wire a switch that controls the light and fan separately?


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tylernt]

I just bought this:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_25663-85476...ty&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=continuity&facetInfo=

With the power OFF, you can undo the connections and put half of that device in one place and half of the thing in the other place and if it beeps/lights up, you've found both ends of the same cable.

Here's a faster and free test though: open up the box at the switch. If you see black, white, and green/bare, you're probably going to have to run new cable. But if you see black, red, white, and green/bare, you're probably good to go.

Before installing fans in ceiling boxes, look at the writing at the back of the box to ensure it is fan-rated. If it's not fan-rated, you will either need to attach the fan directly to a joist to support it, or if there isn't a joist there for that, you'll need to pull the box out and replace it with a fan-rated one.

 

[braves22]

I just bought this:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_25663-85476...ty&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=continuity&facetInfo=

With the power OFF, you can undo the connections and put half of that device in one place and half of the thing in the other place and if it beeps/lights up, you've found both ends of the same cable.

Here's a faster and free test though: open up the box at the switch. If you see black, white, and green/bare, you're probably going to have to run new cable. But if you see black, red, white, and green/bare, you're probably good to go.

Before installing fans in ceiling boxes, look at the writing at the back of the box to ensure it is fan-rated. If it's not fan-rated, you will either need to attach the fan directly to a joist to support it, or if there isn't a joist there for that, you'll need to pull the box out and replace it with a fan-rated one.

Thanks....


I looked at the meter you posted....it looks like a cable connected to the box...is that true? If so how would I go across the room about 10' in and 10' up to the ceiling to test?


And yeah, I have already purchased safety braces to replace the ceiling boxes that will adjoin between joists in the ceiling....the good thing about the ones I purchased, I don't have to get to the attic to use them....so I am good to go there....


This is the wall control I was looking at, and I figured that would be the easiest way to go from what was a single pole outlet IF its feasible to do....I just really would rather not have the light and fan connected to a simple on/off and use the pulls if necessary.


http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Outlets-Fan-Controls/h_d1/N-5yc1vZc32s/R-100059262/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#more_info

 

[braves22]

I just bought this:



With the power OFF, you can undo the connections and put half of that device in one place and half of the thing in the other place and if it beeps/lights up, you've found both ends of the same cable.

Here's another ?


I have read in multiple places here not to undo the neutral bundles because they could be on multi wire circuits....

So if there isn't a red in the wall, is it possible that there is a usable connection in the wall that wouldn't be hooked to anything for future expansion or does anyone do that with newer homes?


Electricians and contractors feel free to chime in....



As I said, I am looking for a feasible way to add a ceiling fan to 2 rooms that contained single pole flush mounted ceiling lighting and have the ability to swap out that single light switch for a single switch that controls the fan and light independently....and trying desperately to do it without needing to crawl through the attic....ive done plenty of wiring in my home, but nothing where I really needed to figure out where wires go through walls, etc.

 

[tylernt]

That meter has two separate halves. You clip one half in place, then walk across the room/house with the other half. The two halves are not connected and don't need to be.

In order to have separate fan/light control, you need to have an extra conductor going from the switch box to the ceiling box. Doesn't matter what kind of switch you want to use, without that extra conductor it's a non-starter.

If you don't have an extra conductor and don't want to add one, your options are as you say to just use the pull chains.

Also, some fans have a remote control kit if you don't like the chains dangling in your face.

 

[tylernt]

I have read in multiple places here not to undo the neutral bundles because they could be on multi wire circuits....

Very rare in residences except in the kitchen. If you feel there may be MWBC present, just kill the main or kill ALL of the breakers before proceeding.

 

[braves22]

Very rare in residences except in the kitchen. If you feel there may be MWBC present, just kill the main or kill ALL of the breakers before proceeding.

Ok, that would work....


After one bad instance of ADD installing a dimmer in my basement, I always remember to cut the power first now :thumbup:


And thx for the advice on the meter.....that will work much better than the one where i hold it to each thing at once



So, to recap for when I get home....I need a red in the wall to be able to proceed and it wont matter a darn how many whites or blacks there are....


This is the text diagram for the control I'd like to use:

Connect the black wire on the
control to the tagged wallbox
wire removed from the switch
(feed wire from the circuit
breaker or fuse box).
• Connect the yellow wire on the
control to the wire leading to the
fan.
• Connect the red wire on the control to the wire leading to the light


So if this is the case and I do have the red in the wall, is it B/B, Y/R, and W/R or is it B/B, W/Y, and R/R?

 

[tylernt]

So, to recap for when I get home....I need a red in the wall to be able to proceed and it wont matter a darn how many whites or blacks there are....

If this were an older home that multiple people had messed with over the years, anything could happen. But for new construction, the red is pretty much your only hope.

So if this is the case and I do have the red in the wall, is it B/B, Y/R, and W/R or is it B/B, W/Y, and R/R?

There should be two cables coming in to the wall switch. One will bring power in, and the other will go out to the ceiling box. All the whites will be tied together. The black that brings power in, will go to your switch. From there the other colors don't matter. Do yellow to black and red to red, or whatever. Just make sure that you wire the ceiling box to match the wall switch, so you don't get the fan and light controls backwards.

 

[braves22]

So I was just doing some researching and noticed this item which seems to allow integration to a single pole switch with a 2 wire hookup to control fan and light independently....


How is this possible.....?


http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Outlets-Fan-Controls/h_d1/N-5yc1vZc32s/R-100658801/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051&superSkuId=202995132#specifications

 

[tylernt]

So I was just doing some researching and noticed this item which seems to allow integration to a single pole switch with a 2 wire hookup to control fan and light independently....


How is this possible.....?

Only possible if the fan is also a "Lutron" so the switch and fan can communicate wirelessly or digitally. Won't work with a "standard" or "dumb" fan.

 

[Oso954]

It isn't.

What you are looking at is a "companion control". It only works with a "master control" and a "canopy module".

If you only have one wall switch, buy the master control MA-LFQ35M-xx (xx would be LA if you want light almond). The canopy module is CM-L300FQ1.
That will give you individual control of light and fan, even with only 2 wires to the fan location.

For 2 (or more) switch locations, you would buy one (or more) companion controls.

And yes, it is designed to work with most fans. (As far as I know, Lutron doesn't make fans)

 

[Oso954]

For one switch (location), bang for your buck, I would go with a wall mount remote similar to this.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...roductId=202801200&storeId=10051#.UPc6mWdyF8E

 

[tylernt]

Ok let me rephrase that, it will only work if you add a smart module to your "standard" "dumb" fan.

 

[braves22]

For one switch (location), bang for your buck, I would go with a wall mount remote similar to this.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&locStoreNum=4647&productId=202801200&storeId=10051#.UPc6mWdyF8E

I really don't like the fact that you need a battery for it...that would seem to be so much more of a pain... Plus if its done wirelessly I hear that it's not compatible w every fan in placing the transmitter module inside the fan assembly

 

[braves22]

So I just got home and opened up the wall and no dice...

There are 3 cable pulls...a grouping of capped whites, a grouping of what looks to be capped grounds, a couple capped black wires that are partially painted black and then 3 to the outlet: black painted white on top, black on bottom, and ground on the side...

So I am guessing I am pretty much screwed on the whole fan/light running independently idea

 

[braves22]

One more question for you guys...

I recall in my basement setup there were extra wires that seemed to be pigtailed in the ceiling and wall that didnt look like they ran to anything...

Should I just assume that everything has a connection somewhere or would it be possible to throw in a 2 gang and a separate switch?


Just trying to cover all my bases before I make my final decision

 

[Oso954]

I really don't like the fact that you need a battery for it...that would seem to be so much more of a pain... Plus if its done wirelessly I hear that it's not compatible w every fan in placing the transmitter module inside the fan assembly

The remote does not use batteries. It mounts in the switch location and uses the power off the line.

If you have trouble mounting the RECEIVER in the fan, you will probably have problems mounting the Lutron control module in the fan.

If the fan Mfg says no remotes (sometimes done with huggers) I would not use the Lutron module in the fan without checking with the fan manufacturer.

 

[braves22]

The remote does not use batteries. It mounts in the switch location and uses the power off the line.

If you have trouble mounting the RECEIVER in the fan, you will probably have problems mounting the Lutron control module in the fan.

If the fan Mfg says no remotes (sometimes done with huggers) I would not use the Lutron module in the fan without checking with the fan manufacturer.

Ok so what is the battery included for then?

Also do you remove the place where the light switch is and mount it there or does it mount elsewhere?


Sorry...been a LONG day!

 

[braves22]

One final question...


Would it be possible to get some Romex and fish it from the ceiling hole to the wall and down the wall to the switch for the hookup?

 

[braves22]

The biggest issue I can foresee is the air return being right above the switch on the wall...

Outside of that you're pretty accurate that the light is in the middle of the room...the upside is the rooms are 10X10 so nothing too big

As you can see the switch is right inside the door and closer to the next interior wall