[SyrBrewer]

Hello all, my name is Mike and I'm opening a brewery in Syracuse, NY. I am currently renovating my space and need some advice...

The building has CMU walls that need to be insulated. I am planning on furring out the interior walls with 24" o.c. 2x6 in order to accept R-23 roxul. So here's my problem, every 12' or so an 18" wide column of block protrudes out of the wall 4". I would prefer not to jog around these columns and was wondering if I could build off the wall 4" so that I run in front of these columns which would greatly simplify my wall construction and eventual sheathing? I was thinking of installing a poly vapor barrier to the back of the furring walls to assist with the insulation installation. If this is a bad idea, could you suggest a simple method of jogging around the columns. Thanks all for any help that you can provide.

-Mike-

 

[Aggie67]

Would this be in the production space or the office space.

 

[ront02769]

Thing is that you are now falling under commercial codess. So when people say "check with the locals" it is ReaLLY important. Ron

 

[SyrBrewer]

Aggie, this will be for the production and tap room spaces...Funny enough the office space is stick frame and will be easy to insulate and finish.

Ron, I'm opening one of the most highly regulated businesses possible, I'm currently interfacing with eight separate regulatory agencies from the feds down to the town council. The furring will be inspected before insulation is installed so their's no cheating. I've already got an email out to the guys over at planning and development regarding code compliance, I'm just soliciting thoughts on my proposed solution to my problem. My upside is that I get a straight wall that's easy to build and sheathe. My downside is that I have 4" of space between my structural wall and my insulation wall and I don't know what, if any, problems that might present in the future. Thanks for the replies so far guys.

-Mike-

 

[Msradell]

Are you going to fall under a local or national energy code of any type? The reason I ask is I wonder if there's a possibility that you just put less inflation in front of those blocks that protrude? It's going to be a very small percentage of your total wall area that has less insulation so it wouldn't affect your energy usage significantly and wouldn't give you the issue of lost space.

 

[SyrBrewer]

Msradell, I have thought of that and its in my email questions to my inspectors. The Roxul can shape easily so this is a real option. I am subject to climate zone 5 energy code regulations, but I remember reading that a certain percentage of the space could be uninsulated to accommodate utility panels etc. I'm hopeful this ends up as my answer but I'm trying to prepare in case this doesn't work out.

 

[gregzoll]

You are going to have to go by what the codes are for any commercial space that deals with food prep requirements. As for bringing the wall out, because of those support columns that are built as part of the wall. You are going to have to use a double wall most likely.

That means run the first set of studs from column to column with the air gap. Then when you run the second wall, see if you can go with maybe 2x3's, since you will gain that extra space and the plus is that it is just a cosmetic wall, not like the one behind it. Just make sure to off set the studs, so that you can insulate the first wall, then insulate the second and also have a way to run any outlets.

Also since it is a Prep area and falls under health regulations. You have to use a wall covering that allows you to wash down the area, to keep it within the local safety reg's. you really should be having a middle person fielding all of the inspectors and making sure that the job site is meeting their requirements.

Any business that deals with food & beverage manufacturing is always under the microscope, with a high failure rate of closing within 5 years. Hopefully you have met with other microbrewers in your area and they have been able to help you with any questions.

 

[Anti-wingnut]

You need an architect for these details. Nobody can give you the answers you wish sight unseen.

I've built many restaurants.

 

[gregzoll]

You need an architect for these details. Nobody can give you the answers you wish sight unseen.

I've built many restaurants.

What they are doing is far different from a Restaurant. They do not need an architect, since most do not understand how micro-breweries want their tasting/production area different from the rest.

 

[Gary in WA]

Your problem is insulating BOTH wall and columns with required full-amount WITHOUT an air gap that is detrimental with convective loops. Ask locally, HOW they would meet code requirements, not some suggestions posted, IMO.

Gary

 

[SyrBrewer]

Gregzoll,
Thanks for the double wall idea...hadn't thought of that, but it would work.

I'm already familiar with the regs from the NYS dept. of Ag and Markets that regulates food production facilities. They're mainly concerned with the finished surface of the walls and floors such that they are able to be cleaned easily. I'm mainly concerned with a waterproof wall finish as the walls will be washed down multiple times during production. With both of these in mind I'm leaning towards FRP panels (though I'm open to alternatives).

As for having a middle person field questions and ensure compliance, that would be great if I had unlimited resources, which I don't. Plus I enjoy getting to personally know all the people who regulate my business such that if there is any issues in the future, I already have a working relationship with these people. Compliance is key.

Finally, 50% of ALL businesses fail in the first year with only a third of the winners lasting five years or more, that's just the risk you take. Its worse in the restaurant industry because its a cash flow business and you can't really inventory. Brewing is a bit different in that our margins are much better (at least with pint service) and we can inventory. I'm fully aware that this all has a big probability of going tits up, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[SyrBrewer]

Anti-wingnut,
I've already got my architectural drawings, they were required to pull my building permits. I've already got an email out to planning and development to see if building out 4" from the wall would be a problem from a code standpoint. I love that everyone here is concerned with my compliance issues, but that's not what I'm asking. I want to know if you can think of any problems that might arise when leaving a 4" air gap between the interior face of a CMU wall and an insulated 2x6" wall built in front of the CMU wall.

 

[SyrBrewer]

Gary,
So you're telling me that an air gap is detrimental...could you explain why, and what the convective loops do? I really like to understand the why and not just the how. Also, I want all the walls up to energy code not just for compliance, but so I'm not paying to heat the outside.

 

[gregzoll]

Gary,
So you're telling me that an air gap is detrimental...could you explain why, and what the convective loops do? I really like to understand the why and not just the how. Also, I want all the walls up to energy code not just for compliance, but so I'm not paying to heat the outside.

The air gap is so that the wall behind the wall does not end up growing mold, because of the temp difference in the production area and tasting room/restaurant if you decide to go that far.

I would personally use Georgia Pacific's DensArmor for the wall covering. http://www.buildgp.com/densarmorplus-interior-gypsum-panels Then cover with FRP, which is required in food & beverage prep areas. http://www.marlite.com/designer-wall-systems-frp-wall-panels.aspx Also because FRP comes in different styles.

The two local micro-breweries in my area, set up a taste and food paring event at various restaurants around town. One of them do a Growler Friday.

If you look up Rolling Meadows Brewery, they also do a great Blood Orange and Cherry Whit, that is better then any that I have tasted.

Crossing your fingers that this takes off as you planned it from day one. One couple jumped the gun in opening too soon, because they have one brew that they did not produce enough of at the beginning, so that it caused a lot of flack from the micro-brew drinking crowd.

 

[Anti-wingnut]

Very common to build new walls out from the existing in commercial work, the issue that may come to play is fire blocking.

 

[Anti-wingnut]

What they are doing is far different from a Restaurant. They do not need an architect, since most do not understand how micro-breweries want their tasting/production area different from the rest.

An AHJ would probably look at a brew house/tap room as being required to follow the same codes as any restaurant.

Not sure, but I'm sure I have a greater grasp on it than you would.

Carry on.

 

[gregzoll]

An AHJ would probably look at a brew house/tap room as being required to follow the same codes as any restaurant.

Not sure, but I'm sure I have a greater grasp on it than you would.

Carry on.

It is not the AHJ, it is the Public Health department that looks at a brewery as the same standards as Food Prep. The AHJ is looking at construction, electrical, plumbing, safety around the tops of the equipment and on the floor. Which the later falls more into OSHA.

What the OP is doing, has been done in thousands of breweries across the country. I have a classmate who husband runs Four Peaks Brewery in Tempe, Az. Their facility is set up the same was as the Dogfish brewery. It is basically a concrete pad and a steel building as the facility.

Right now the OP is basically looking for ideas on how to hide those Support columns, since they cannot be showing in the production area, because all surfaces would be required to be covered with FRP.

 

[Anti-wingnut]

Why do I get the feeling you'd argue with the wall over the paint?

An AHJ is the "Authority Having Jurisdiction". Public Health is clearly one of many AHJ's that a business owner or builder will have to deal with during a project. Trying to vet them out as something else is just silly.

What they are doing is far different from a Restaurant. They do not need an architect, since most do not understand how micro-breweries want their tasting/production area different from the rest.

First you say that a taproom is vastly different than a restaurant, then in a later post you explain that food prep room are covered by the same Public Health rules as restaurants.

In most areas Public Health is involved in the very same plan review as all the other AHJ's, they are concerned about the location of sinks, types wall and floor coverings as called out on the plans. They generally want to be the last AHJ called out for inspection except for building final and CoO. During their inspection(s) they will be concerned about the above cited finished surfaces, the sinks as well as the tables, water temp and supply time, cooler and freezer temps, and any operator certs that may be required.

I have a classmate who husband runs Four Peaks Brewery in Tempe, Az.

With a CV like like, you are a valuable asset to this conversation. All I've done in my career is build more than several restaurants of various scales from the ground up, acting as the point man for all inspections including building, health, electrical, plumbing, mechanical, water district, sewer and several I can't remember.

I've even been to restaurants as a customer, but I bow done to you as someone who went to school with somebody who is married to somebody.....

 

[Gary in WA]

Gary,
So you're telling me that an air gap is detrimental...could you explain why, and what the convective loops do? I really like to understand the why and not just the how. Also, I want all the walls up to energy code not just for compliance, but so I'm not paying to heat the outside.

When a wall is heated on one side and cooled on the other, with a gap between the temperatures, convective loops form in the air space. You will be heating the top portion of the CMU wall, and also depositing any moisture present from exterior infiltration (CMU are open to air/moisture). Warm air rises, cold air sinks. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...pCFvoJlgzLf5dFA&bvm=bv.83134100,d.cGU&cad=rja

Not quite what Gregzol thought I was going to say, why do we even have names...lol.

Gary