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Squidbilly

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Basic Information:
volunteer work for a local church
parking lot lighting w/ 4 GE M400 400W fixtures (3.9A each w/ HPS bulbs) on 2 poles (2 fixtures per pole)
fixture operating voltages: 108V - 131V per GE tech. support
120V AC (1 PH) 3-wire, copper conductor with PVC conduit
One 20A circuit feeds the fixtures
All 12 AWG wire (already is place when I arrived)

Relevant Distances:
segment 1: panel to center of parking lot (this point is geometrically between the poles): 175 feet
segment 2: center point to base of pole 1 or 2: 60 feet
segment 3: pole base to top of pole: 31 feet
segment 4: pole out to fixture at arms end: 14 feet

Wiring:
3 wires run from panel to center point of parking lot (175 feet) and feed:
3 wires running north to pole 1 (60 feet) and 3 wires running south to pole 2
These wires run to the base and up to the top of the pole (31 feet) where they feed:
3 wires running to fixture 1 (14 feet) and 3 wires running to fixture 2

My question: In calculating the voltage drop for each fixture via a spreadsheet, I did it in segments as follows:
using Vd=2kIL/Cm (with 12.9 for k and 6530 for Cm) for each segment

* segment 1 *
load amperage: 4 fixtures*3.9A = 15.6A
length: 175 feet

* segments 2 and 3 *
load amperage: 2 fixtures*3.9A = 7.8A
length: 60 + 31 = 91 feet

* segment 4 *
load amperage: 1 fixtures*3.9A = 3.9A
length:14 feet

I estimated the total voltage drop (sum of voltage drop from each segment) at each fixture to be 13.8V or 11.5% of the supplied 120V.
However, I have several "knowledgeable" people within this church arguing that #12 is adequate for the parking lot lighting.
Based on the calculations (and I do realize they are mere estimates if they are indeed correct), the lights will burn dim if the even come on at all.

Since I am probably rusty, I just wanted some advice on my calculations before proceeding.

Jim Port

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It looks like you used the one way distance instead of the out and back distance of the circuit.

Squidbilly

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It looks like you used the one way distance instead of the out and back distance of the circuit.

Isn't the distance or length in the Vd equation (Vd=2kIL/Cm) the distance the load is located from the power supply and not the total length of the circuit conductors (i.e., out and back distance)?

mpoulton

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No way #12 is acceptable under those conditions. The voltage drop is too great even at the first pole. HPS lights won't really burn dim like incandescents will, since the ballast will try to operate at rated current no matter the input voltage. However, running low input voltage will make the fixture harder to start (reducing effective lamp life) and make the ballast run hotter. It's not a good thing. #12 wire would probably be acceptable if you use 240V and ballasts that are rated 208-240V.

Speedy Petey

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However, I have several "knowledgeable" people within this church arguing that #12 is adequate for the parking lot lighting.
You should tell them they need to find some more knowledge.

For the life of me WHY would anyone run FOUR 400W MH parking lot fixtures at 120V???
Being a parking lot automatically screams voltage drop. 240V has 1/4 as severe VD as 120V.

parman

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It really should not be much of an issue to change this over to a 240V circuit. (If you know what you are doing)

Either that or pull larger wire.

Speedy Petey

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It really should not be much of an issue to change this over to a 240V circuit. (If you know what you are doing)
It is apparent from the OP that these are single voltage fixtures, not multi-tap.

parman

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It is apparent from the OP that these are single voltage fixtures, not multi-tap.

Whoops, missed that. Sorry, my mistake. Eyes glossed over at all the calculations

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Squidbilly

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It is apparent from the OP that these are single voltage fixtures, not multi-tap.
Yes, they are multi-tap. I was initially told they were not (they are indeed set-up and wired for 120V), but upon my own inspection I was able to verify that they will work at other voltages.

frenchelectrican

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Yes, they are multi-tap. I was initially told they were not (they are indeed set-up and wired for 120V), but upon my own inspection I was able to verify that they will work at other voltages.
If the luminaire is actually rated for other voltage I will seriouslly suggest that to reconferaged to 240 volt only I say only if nothing else is hooked up to this circuit ( like landscaping luminaire or sign luminaire ) and I am seriouslly suggest that you should get a qualifed electrician to do this part.

I will not run with 4.0mm2 ( 12 AWG ) on 120 volts like that distance you will cook the conductors and will have issue with luminaries.

For myself I will just run much larger conductors they can handle the voltage drop far much better than what ya got there.

But have a electrician assit you on this one. This is one of few spots I will recomened that the church volunteer work off limit on that part.

I am sorry if I come out little harsh but I have deal quite few Church projects before so I know what the outcome is. ( there is few set of codes we have to follow btw it is not the same as resdentail is )

Merci,
Marc

NJMarine

busman

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You should tell them they need to find some more knowledge.

For the life of me WHY would anyone run FOUR 400W MH parking lot fixtures at 120V???
Being a parking lot automatically screams voltage drop. 240V has 1/4 as severe VD as 120V.
Sorry Petey, not buying the inverse squared relationship on voltage drop. It's a simple inverse. 240V has 1/2 the VD of the same load at 120V. An Example:

1200W load at 120V is 10A (as seen at the source)
1200W load at 240V is 5A (as seen at the source)

Say the wire resistance is 1 ohm.

Since Vd=I*R, the Vd for the 120V circuit is 10V and the Vd for the 240V circuit is 5V. Of course this is only valid for relatively small Vd, since the actual load voltages would then be 110V and 235V respectively and the power would be 1100W and 1175W.

I think you are confusing voltage and power. The power lost by voltage drop is I^2*R, so dropping the raising the voltage to 2 times, drops the current to 1/2 and the power lost in the wire to 1/4 (as is seen by the 1100W versus the 1175W). However, the voltage drop is only 1/2 (10V versus 5V).

Mark

mpoulton

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It has half the voltage drop, but 1/4 of the voltage drop *problem*. The important parameter with voltage drop is not the absolute drop in voltage (5V or 10V) but the percentage reduction in supply voltage (2% vs. 8%). Doubling the voltage reduces the percentage voltage drop by a factor of four.

Speedy Petey

Stubbie

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If I had been forced to use 120 volts I would have compensated in the first run to the center of the parking lot between poles with larger wire, then used 12 awg to each pole. I think a most 20 amp breakers would takeup to a #8 awg. Anyway I would play with wire sizes to see if that would get me reasonable Vd using 120 volts.

All this 12 awg and poles are in place but I take it that it is not in operation yet.

Stubbie

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Isn't the distance or length in the Vd equation (Vd=2kIL/Cm) the distance the load is located from the power supply and not the total length of the circuit conductors (i.e., out and back distance)?
That is correct

Speedy Petey

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It has half the voltage drop, but 1/4 of the voltage drop *problem*. The important parameter with voltage drop is not the absolute drop in voltage (5V or 10V) but the percentage reduction in supply voltage (2% vs. 8%). Doubling the voltage reduces the percentage voltage drop by a factor of four.
Thank you. I thought "1/4 as severe" was pretty clear.

Squidbilly

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If I had been forced to use 120 volts I would have compensated in the first run to the center of the parking lot between poles with larger wire, then used 12 awg to each pole. I think a most 20 amp breakers would takeup to a #8 awg. Anyway I would play with wire sizes to see if that would get me reasonable Vd using 120 volts.

All this 12 awg and poles are in place but I take it that it is not in operation yet.
Thanks everybody for your help thus far!

Yes, #12 is in place, but the lights are not in operation yet. They want to use a timer on the inside to keep the lights off on nights when they are not there, and that has yet to be put in place.

In terms of voltage drop and playing with wires sizes, what voltage drop should be deemed reasonable for 120V? 3%? I seriously do not understand why they did not wire them for 240V. Otherwise, it is going to be be difficult to get the Vd under or around even 5% unless you use #8 from the panel all the way to the base of the poles (that would give Vd~5.1% by my calculations).

Speedy Petey

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If the wire is in place but not yet hooked up why not just wire them for 240v instead of 120v?

frenchelectrican

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Thanks everybody for your help thus far!

Yes, #12 is in place, but the lights are not in operation yet. They want to use a timer on the inside to keep the lights off on nights when they are not there, and that has yet to be put in place.

If not hooked up yet it will be good time to reconferaged to 240 volts that is not super hard to do that but I know someone will have to go back up to the pole topper and change the connection and this is the only surefire way you can slove the issue with exsting conductors what ya got there.

Second thing If ya going to use the timer get one that rated to run on 240 volts ( there are few verison aviable )

And as I mention before make sure nothing else is hooked up to this circuit when going from 120 volts to 240 volts even 208 volts if your church have them that will work just fine as well.

In terms of voltage drop and playing with wires sizes, what voltage drop should be deemed reasonable for 120V? 3%? I seriously do not understand why they did not wire them for 240V. Otherwise, it is going to be be difficult to get the Vd under or around even 5% unless you use #8 from the panel all the way to the base of the poles (that would give Vd~5.1% by my calculations).
Normally I useally sized the conductor with 5% Voltage drop which it is typical very few items I will have tighter voltage drop but not used often.

Most HID lumiaires will work 5% voltage drop without much effort but anything more than 5% will created a new cans of " worms "

The other thing it will change the game a little due few mention before is use larger conductor and I am not too suprised that you may run the luminarie more than 3 hours easy so it will treat as contionous useage.

So that why few of us mention upsizing the conductor in first place.

Merci,
Marc

Squidbilly

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Thanks again for all the responses.

Just an update .....

Against my strongest recommendations, they went ahead with the wiring as is (#12 all the way) and had the local power company stand up the poles. Upon testing them tonight, none of the four lights will burn. Now, they are back to me asking why.

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