[augustwest89]

Hello,

I'm upgrading the below combination outlet switch to an updated GFCI however my existing wiring is outdated so the instructions that came with the new switch do not apply.

Here is some useful information-

• Single cable coming out of my wall with RED, BLACK and WHITE wires
• Switch controls the bathroom light fixture
• The outlet recently stopped working although the switch still works and operates the light. I just can't plug anything into the outlet... Breakers are all fine.

I'd love some thoughts on how to rewire this outlet switch. Thanks for the help.

Here are some photos-

 

[joed]

Did the receptacle ever work?
Did you recently make any changes at the light? That switch is not wired correctly for the wire colours.
I can tell you how it should be wired but it still might not work depending on the wiring at the light. Can you post a picture of the light wiring.

 

[hkstroud]

The white of the cable is the neutral, the bare is the ground. Connect the white to the white/line screw. Connect the bare to the green ground screw.



Either the red or the black is bringing power to the box but we don't know which. Probably the red. The other (red or black) is returning power to the light when the switch is on.


The two wires coming out of the switch/outlet you purchased are the switch wires.


Connect the red and one of the wires coming out of the outlet (doesn't matter which one) to the hot terminal. Connect the black to the other wire coming out of the outlet with a wire nut.


Turn power on.

If the outlet always has power you are done. If the outlet only has power when the switch is on (and the light burns), the red and black are reversed. In that case put the black under the hot screw and connect the red to the wire coming out of the outlet with the wire nut.

 

[augustwest89]

The outlet and switch have worked this way for the past 40+ years. The outlet always has power and only recently stopped working- it wasn’t required, this wiring is original. The outlet was always independent of the light switch as well.

 

[augustwest89]

The white of the cable is the neutral, the bare is the ground. Connect the white to the white/line screw. Connect the bare to the green ground screw.



Either the red or the black is bringing power to the box but we don't know which. Probably the red. The other (red or black) is returning power to the light when the switch is on.


The two wires coming out of the switch/outlet you purchased are the switch wires.


Connect the red and one of the wires coming out of the outlet (doesn't matter which one) to the hot terminal. Connect the black to the other wire coming out of the outlet with a wire nut.


Turn power on.

If the outlet always has power you are done. If the outlet only has power when the switch is on (and the light burns), the red and black are reversed. In that case put the black under the hot screw and connect the red to the wire coming out of the outlet with the wire nut.

Thanks,FYI I have no ground coming out of the wall. In the scenario you gave, only two screw terminals are being used- is this correct?

Thanks

 

[hkstroud]

In the scenario you gave, only two screw terminals are being used- is this correct?

Yes. The screw terminals under the yellow label are only used if you want to add another outlet downstream and have it GFI protected by this outlet.

I have no ground coming out of the wall.

I can't be sure because of the lighting but I believe the ground wire is connected to the metal box by a screw in the rear of the box.


The old switch/outlet and your new switch/outlet are both self grounding devices. That's what that spring like material around the mounting screw is. The mounting screw grounds the mounting strap to the box. This is permitted and acceptable.


Confirm that the bare wire is mounted to the box.
Then wire as described and don't worry about grounding.

 

[seharper]

Wired as you show it, it's not possible for that thing to have worked properly. Unless the wiring up in the lamp is really screwed up.

Don't even think about trying to install the GFCI until we repair this broken wiring. Trying to stack a major change on top of the "broken" will never work.

And on the GFCI, you see the warning tape that says (in as many words) "Do not use. For wizards only"? Leave that warning tape on there. Given this wiring layout it will be impossible to use the LOAD side for anything.

- The white wire MUST be on the silver screw that the photos show the red wire as being on - unless white is misconfigured in the lamp box to NOT be neutral.

- The normal convention is to use black as always-hot. Always-hot MUST be on the far side of the recep (the side opposite neutral).

- Switched-hot MUST be on the screw next to neutral where the black now is. The normal convention is to use red as switched-hot to the lamp.

It's perfectly legal for them to have swapped red and black - it's a convention, not a rule. However, misuse of neutral is completely illegal.

I think we need to see a photo of the wiring up in the lamp box.

 

[augustwest89]

In the scenario you gave, only two screw terminals are being used- is this correct?

Yes. The screw terminals under the yellow label are only used if you want to add another outlet downstream and have it GFI protected by this outlet.

I have no ground coming out of the wall.

I can't be sure because of the lighting but I believe the ground wire is connected to the metal box by a screw in the rear of the box.


The old switch/outlet and your new switch/outlet are both self grounding devices. That's what that spring like material around the mounting screw is. The mounting screw grounds the mounting strap to the box. This is permitted and acceptable.


Confirm that the bare wire is mounted to the box.
Then wire as described and don't worry about grounding.

Thanks I will confirm about the ground wire tomorrow. I don’t remember seeing any bare wires in the box and know for sure there were only red, black and white wires coming from the conduit in the box.

I will try your wiring tomorrow night and post an update. Is it a big issue if I can’t find any ground wire in the box?

Thanks for your help.

 

[hkstroud]

The outlet was always independent of the light switch as well.

That may have intended and desired or it may not. Reversing the connections of the red and black wires would have changed that if it was not desired.
You would have to have some really, really old wiring (like back to the 60's) for there not to be a ground wire in that cable.

 

[augustwest89]

Wired as you show it, it's not possible for that thing to have worked properly. Unless the wiring up in the lamp is really screwed up.

Don't even think about trying to install the GFCI until we repair this broken wiring. Trying to stack a major change on top of the "broken" will never work.

And on the GFCI, you see the warning tape that says (in as many words) "Do not use. For wizards only"? Leave that warning tape on there. Given this wiring layout it will be impossible to use the LOAD side for anything.

- The white wire MUST be on the silver screw that the photos show the red wire as being on - unless white is misconfigured in the lamp box to NOT be neutral.

- The normal convention is to use black as always-hot. Always-hot MUST be on the far side of the recep (the side opposite neutral).

- Switched-hot MUST be on the screw next to neutral where the black now is. The normal convention is to use red as switched-hot to the lamp.

It's perfectly legal for them to have swapped red and black - it's a convention, not a rule. However, misuse of neutral is completely illegal.

I think we need to see a photo of the wiring up in the lamp box.

Thanks for your input. I’ll get photos of the wiring to the light fixture tomorrow before doing anything with the outlet. I need to change the light fixture anyway.

Thanks!

 

[seharper]

Wait. Did you say conduit? If the conduit is metal, that itself may be the grounding path.

Now, you see those mounting screws that hold the recep to the box (just dangling in your photo)? Those are a valid grounding path for switches. They are not a valid grounding path for receptacles. So you may need to run a ground wire from the recep to the ground screw in the back of the box (look for a hole tapped #10-32).

However, given that the GFCI will trip at 6ma of leakage on the ground wire, the screws may be good enough for 6ma, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Still a codevio though.

 

[hkstroud]

They are not a valid grounding path for receptacles.

Support for that statement please.


A lot of self grounding receptacles being sold. Surprised that there hasn't been a law suit.

 

[joed]

The way that old switch is wired the white is the hot wire. It is on the common screw. Or the neutral is being switched and the red wire is a switched neutral.
We must know the wiring at the fixture to fix this properly.

 

[lenaitch]

The old switch/outlet and your new switch/outlet are both self grounding devices. That's what that spring like material around the mounting screw is. The mounting screw grounds the mounting strap to the box. This is permitted and acceptable.

I don't see that in the photos. All I see is a mounting screw with a plastic/paper retainer clip. It may well provide a grounding path but I don't know what the rules are.
This is a stock image of a self-grounding receptacle:

 

[hkstroud]

Expanded view of OP holding GFI switch/outlet.

 

[seharper]

Now, you see those mounting screws that hold the recep to the box (just dangling in your photo)? Those are a valid grounding path for switches. They are not a valid grounding path for receptacles.

Support for that statement please.

You quoted me out of context. I added back in (in underline) the context. I was referring to OP's receptacle. Nonetheless, to answer your question, see NEC 250.146.

A lot of self grounding receptacles being sold. Surprised that there hasn't been a law suit.

That's the trouble with quoting people out of context. It makes you sound dumb.

Expanded view of OP holding GFI switch/outlet.

Self-grounding status must be reflected in the device's labeling and instructions. OP photos plainly show no labeling to that effect. Leviton's instructions don't say boo about self-grounding, but do instruct the user to run a ground wire.

 

[augustwest89]

The white of the cable is the neutral, the bare is the ground. Connect the white to the white/line screw. Connect the bare to the green ground screw.



Either the red or the black is bringing power to the box but we don't know which. Probably the red. The other (red or black) is returning power to the light when the switch is on.


The two wires coming out of the switch/outlet you purchased are the switch wires.


Connect the red and one of the wires coming out of the outlet (doesn't matter which one) to the hot terminal. Connect the black to the other wire coming out of the outlet with a wire nut.


Turn power on.

If the outlet always has power you are done. If the outlet only has power when the switch is on (and the light burns), the red and black are reversed. In that case put the black under the hot screw and connect the red to the wire coming out of the outlet with the wire nut.

I tried this and nothing. No power to lights or receptacle. When I put the original receptacle back in everything works perfectly.

Here's a photo of the setup you recommended.

 

[augustwest89]

The way that old switch is wired the white is the hot wire. It is on the common screw. Or the neutral is being switched and the red wire is a switched neutral.
We must know the wiring at the fixture to fix this properly.

You seemed to be the most correct without having much background. You mentioned the white was hot even when it didn't originally appear that way.

As I mentioned originally, the receptible hasn't worked for the last few weeks. I found out why when I exposed the light fixture. See below photos of fixture. The red wire came loose but was originally tied into the white wire. The black wire connected to the other side of the light fixture independently.

Not to confuse anyone but with the red wire loose in the light fixture- the black and red wires in the receptacle box were hot, the white was not. Once I reconnected the red wire with the white at the light fixture everything changed. The WHITE wire in the receptacle box is now the only HOT wire.

I hope these findings help resolve things.

 

[augustwest89]

That may have intended and desired or it may not. Reversing the connections of the red and black wires would have changed that if it was not desired.
You would have to have some really, really old wiring (like back to the 60's) for there not to be a ground wire in that cable.

The wiring is old, originally done in the early to mid 60's I believe.

Although there is a grounding wire in the light fixture box that you can see in my last post, there is NO ground at all in the receptacle box. See photos.

Is this a problem?

 

[hkstroud]

You have correctly diagnosed and solve your problem. In the light fixture box connect the white of the cable to the switch/outlet to the incoming white neutral. Connect the red to the incoming hot (black).

In the ceiling box there appears to be a ground wire in the cable with the red wire.
Remove the cable clamp in the switch box and see if the ground wire has been wrapped around the the cable and then compressed by the clamp.


(A way of grounding in the early sixties. A question I missed on a test)