[jackplmb]

My sons mother was diagnosed with cancer and relocated with family prior to her death one plus year ago. Her 6th floor condo has been empty since
relocating ~ 2.5 years ago. The unit has been unoccupied for ~ 2.5 years.

On 22 December 2019, at 10:30 PM, building maintenance received a call
from answering service re: B401, one floor below B501, her unit. Water was
coming from ceiling areas into his unit. Maintenance entered B401 and observed. The flow had stopped by this point as B401 occupant had been out that evening. I'm not certain if maintenance entered B501 or not. (note: condo manager is on vacation during this period so 'owner' calls go to answering service.)

On 27 December 2019, 2:30 PM maintenance received a call again, from
answering service re: B401 with water entering his unit from ceiling / walls. As they were onsite this time maintenance enters B501 and observes wet floor in kitchen / LR and the sink 3/4 full of water. Maintenance utilizes plunger to attempt to dislodge blockage. Maintenance indicates that when plunging, the drain coughed-back-up the liquid as well as debris.

January 8 2020, my son finally receives a call from condo manager indicating the problem. He visits the condo that PM and takes pictures.


I will say that at this point, I was extremely fearful as I had installed a new
kitchen faucet two weeks prior. The pictures indicated that the overflow did come from the sink drain and not due to my install. The pictures show the dried residue in the sink as 'flaking' pieces from the 70 year old drain system as well as unidentified other material in the bottom of the sink. There were also 'fresher' dried food bits on the counter-top.


Subsequent to these events, I spent time with the two maintenance guys to attempt to determine exactly happened.


This week, we had a visual/video inspection performed on the system down
to 21 feet ($512, two guys, 1 hour). No obvious obstructions were seen ! This same day one of the maintenance guys (#2) indicated that they had done an inspection of B601 for 'piping' work that had been done in the kitchen 'two months ago'. B601 does NOT have a disposal.

Understand that the condo manager has a 'hands-off' approach and anything within/between unit owners although she did allow me to spend 30 minutes talking with the two maintenance guys.


Unit B401 below had significant damage to ceilings, walls and floor (old
Parquet) and the two/three units below him had varying levels of water
intrusion.

So, what in the heck could have happened ? My son/mother Parquet floor is gone. 7 inch ridges at places.

The amount of water that seems to have exited the sink seems enormous. The stack involved only supports the six kitchen units, per maintenance.

Ideas are much much appreciated !

thanks, jack

 

[chandler48]

Either there is an undiscovered clog downstream, or there is a severe venting problem not allowing air on top of the water to evacuate it normally. Picture a soda straw stuck in water, placing your thumb over the end and withdrawing it. Water stays in the straw. Similarly it will happen to a venting system, especially stacked units. Squirrels and other animals will drop nuts and leaves down the pipe and occlude it. It may give the maintenance guys a place to start.

I know the water supply to the condo is turned off during vacant periods, right?

IF it is a venting problem or drain problem, it is below unit B401 that sustained the damage and backed up into his unit and into yours ultimately.

 

[jackplmb]

Either there is an undiscovered clog downstream, or there is a severe venting problem not allowing air on top of the water to evacuate it normally. Picture a soda straw stuck in water, placing your thumb over the end and withdrawing it. Water stays in the straw. Similarly it will happen to a venting system, especially stacked units. Squirrels and other animals will drop nuts and leaves down the pipe and occlude it. It may give the maintenance guys a place to start.

I know the water supply to the condo is turned off during vacant periods, right?

IF it is a venting problem or drain problem, it is below unit B401 that sustained the damage and backed up into his unit and into yours ultimately.

Camera went down21' . If blockage was below B401, the water would have exited his sink, not the unit above. No ?


The roof vent would be above, by one unit.


The situation appears to have not happened again since 27 december.

 

[chandler48]

the water would have exited his sink, not the unit above. No ?

Then it could be between the two units, only causing eruption in 501, leaking down to his unit. Did the camera do the vent, or just the drain?

 

[jackplmb]

Then it could be between the two units, only causing eruption in 501, leaking down to his unit. Did the camera do the vent, or just the drain?

Larry, from OP.
This week, we had a visual/video inspection performed on the system down
to 21 feet

 

[chandler48]

Quite often we use terms that are ambiguous, and "system" is one. Did they scope the vent? It could be they did just the drain down 21'. I'm just trying to help find where the problem could be.

 

[djlandkpl]

Maybe the pipe froze/block of ice blocked the pipe.

 

[Nealtw]

I would suspect a problem above that some one is not being honest about.

A flood alarm in he sink may be a good idea for now.

 

[jackplmb]

Then it could be between the two units, only causing eruption in 501, leaking down to his unit. Did the camera do the vent, or just the drain?

The camera did not go up. Only went down.

 

[jackplmb]

Maybe the pipe froze/block of ice blocked the pipe.

I guess that is possible. The condo association is not helpful.

 

[jackplmb]

I would suspect a problem above that some one is not being honest about.

A flood alarm in he sink may be a good idea for now.

The sink is plugged as well as the dishwasher drain for now.

 

[jackplmb]

Then it could be between the two units, only causing eruption in 501, leaking down to his unit. Did the camera do the vent, or just the drain?

Camera did only the drain. I'm not understanding the vent aspect.


My assumption was that the stack would rise through the roof and act the vent.


I need to understand the vent situation better ! thanks !

 

[chandler48]

See post 2. The vent acts as an air admittance device. You need air above the water for it to properly evacuate the drains. It is entirely possible for the ice problem as leaves, acorns, etc could have lodged in the vent and rain water settled on them and froze causing the "thumb on the straw" effect.

 

[jackplmb]

See post 2. The vent acts as an air admittance device. You need air above the water for it to properly evacuate the drains. It is entirely possible for the ice problem as leaves, acorns, etc could have lodged in the vent and rain water settled on them and froze causing the "thumb on the straw" effect.

thanks Larry, understood.


My assumption was that the vertical stack exited at the roof to provide venting. The stack supports 6 units all in alignment. It does make a horizontal change somewhere around the 1-2 floor as there is no floor 1 unit in the 2 through 7 alignment. This stack supports only 6 units as I was told by the 40 year maintenance guy.



In a 70 year old apartment construction, would they have used a vent that did not use the stack up through the roof ?

 

[jackplmb]

link to video


I believe that it will work


https://ln2.sync.com/dl/59f4995a0/epff2k4i-bqjkdmyx-vyih8s2n-ph7xr7hf

 

[skoronesa]

link to video
I believe that it will work

Greetings from the plumbing zone!!!



plumbingzoneDOTCOM/f7/totally-perplexed-kit-sink-overflows-twice-condo-no-one-lived-there-2-1-2-yrs-85664/#post1227002

First off, it ain't a vent issue. It's almost never a vent issue. Also, in the video you can clearly see there is good airflow.


Second, that line needs a good jetting. Even with a small 1/4" jetter, something.


Third, the clog could have been past the lowest apartment. The lowest sink could have had solids get forced into the trap which would have clogged and stopped their sink from over flowing. Where as your apartment being higher up would see more liquid which often rises to the top and would easily come out of your sink.






---skoro





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[chandler48]

It's almost never a vent issue.

Until it is. Welcome to the forums. If the leak was not in the lower apartment, but through the ceiling of the second one up, then the blockage of the line would not have been below the lower apartment. If so, it would have leaked in THEIR sink.

Your turn.

 

[skoronesa]

Until it is. Welcome to the forums. If the leak was not in the lower apartment, but through the ceiling of the second one up, then the blockage of the line would not have been below the lower apartment. If so, it would have leaked in THEIR sink.

Your turn.

Third, the clog could have been past the lowest apartment. The lowest sink could have had solids get forced into the trap which would have clogged and stopped their sink from over flowing. Where as your apartment being higher up would see more liquid which often rises to the top and would easily come out of your sink.


.

How common do you think vent issues are? How would a blocked vent at the top of this stack or another stack tied in at the tree cause this? A blocked vent will cause bubbling, sucking, and slow draining but it would be extremely rare for a properly plumbed system to have a blocked vent which causes waste to be forced out of another appliance.


Your turn I guess?









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[chandler48]

Vent issues are the absolute last issue involved, as you say, but since they have run down 21 feet already with no occlusion, I am trying to exclude other possibilities. Vent clogs act strangely in multiple level dwellings. If all avenues are clear, and no one has run the vents, everything is still in question.

 

[skoronesa]

Vent issues are the absolute last issue involved, as you say, but since they have run down 21 feet already with no occlusion, I am trying to exclude other possibilities. Vent clogs act strangely in multiple level dwellings. If all avenues are clear, and no one has run the vents, everything is still in question.

I see your point. I assumed it had already been unclogged by the time the video was taken. But I don't recall seeing any evidence of a snake in that pipe in the video.



I still think it's much more likely that it was clogged. I have had several clogs give way in the time it took me to respond to a call. On the other hand I have only had two issues where a clogged vent was the culprit and in at least one the rest of the system wasn't properly plumbed and would have prevented the issue.


This looks like at least a 3" stack. Even if it shrinks to 1-1/2" above the top floor sink it's unlikely that this 3+ story apartment building has any trees close enough and above the vent pipe that it would clog with leaves or the like. Simple test is to rope up a 5 gallon bucket to the roof and pour it down. Or cut the vent in the attic and run camera/water.


I'm not saying it's impossible though. I have a customer with a three story house that's at least 50 yards from the surrounding trees and is 3" ti-krome out the roof. I go there once every couple years, climb out the window and pour a gallon of water down because of those twirly seed things and leaves.






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