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Discussion Starter #1
What do they mean when they say "Not rated for structural use" ?


I am building a 3500 sq ft workshop with 16 ft walls.


I had planned to "cheat" a bit ... no OSB ... just put T1-11 right onto the 2 x 6 studs (Z trim between the two sheets).


Lowes offers two "LP SmartSide 76 Engineered Panel Siding" chooses.


One is $41 and says not rated for structural use.


The other has exactly the same specifications (thickness .. warranty ... ) but is $59 and says "rated for structural use".


What is the difference?


Does this matter in my application?


Home Depot offers a "DuraTemp" version but it is "real" plywood and gets bad ratings as far as warp ... but it is only $33 a sheet.


Any suggestions ?????


Mike
 

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Mike.... I AM NOT AN ENGINEER>>>so I won't be too precise.

But in general, building panel goods(sheathing, roof decking,flooring are rated for their "streanth' in different applications).

An engineer would determine the rating that you need....or rather in practice the eng would design your framing for the standard and available building panels available. He wiuld be considering flexural streangth in different building conditions, and shear and diaphram requirement.

In your case, I'm assuming T-111 is to be applied externally to your walls with no plywood/osb sub sheathing and installed vertically.

For instance 32/16 on plywood...would indicate that ply is rated for roofing on 32 centers applied accross rafters and 16 on center for subflooring...under standard normal conditions.

T-111 does not carry, as far as I know, any structural rateing, This means it clearly is not suitable for shear walls, and depending where you are, may not be suitable for corners.

I am guessing you don't have any engineering for your project, or this would be called out on your plans.

Will you be using drywall interior or something more substantial interior...???

I can't call out your specifics, you might ask an engineer in your area, but I wouldn't just use unrated sheathing unless maybe it is a shed outback.

NEAL will be along soon....and he's excellent framer

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Awesome ... I started thinking about this after I put up my post.


You are correct in all your assumptions ....


Just T1-11 on the 2 x 6 frame ..... no sheathing.


No engineer on this project ... just me.


On the house I just built ... again, I was the engineer ... hmmmm .... I just used what I called "good practiced" and put plywood on the corners rather than OSB (which I used everywhere else).


Since the two sheets of T1-11 seem the same expect one is "rated" ... and cost $20 more ... maybe I could do the same thing and use the rated sheets on the corners?


Inside ... I am trying to avoid drywall ... since I am doing it myself, drywall is heavy and I take 5 coats to do a good job.


I was thinking T1-11 but using it horizontal ... thought it would look good and give that "old time" feel to the shop.


My other option is 1/4" floor underlay (luan) .... it is cheap, light ... easy to put up ... maybe rough 1 x 2 or 1 x 3 on the joints just for looks.


This is a three bay shop .. one for metal working (I am a machinist by trade and have a couple lathes and mills) ... one for woodworking (my "hobby") ... and one for auto work / storage (I have a 25 ft RV I would like to house most of the time rather than sit outside as it does now).


The pad is in ... just waiting for the snow to melt and the frost to come out of the ground. I am over half way done insulating the outside of the slab (2" of foam under it) and then start putting it up.


Thanks .... Mike
P1150096.jpg
 

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Even if they were rated for it. that would come with a nailing pattern that you would not like for siding. I don't know the rules but when the build with out siding the do let in corner bracing like they did back when they did ship lap, before plywood.

If I was going to cheat I would cheat in a way that gave me structure and still gave me the space behind solid siding that is required in most places because it works.

House wrap . 1/2x 1 1/2" plywood strips on the studs. Exterior plywood pushed up inside the upper flashing so there is a gap at the bottom. Nailed off like and construction plywood, use galvanized nails as some will be exposed. Put 1x3, or 1x4 on so it looks like board and batten siding.
I can explain more if there is interest.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
OK .... you definitely have my interest ...


So, I think what you are doing is creating an air gap or drainage plane behind the siding?


I was going to use house wrap ... actually, I have been thinking of using it inside and outside ... people seem to be frowning on poly inside as the shop will then not let out moisture.


With only a 1/2" gap, will the fiberglass batts push out on the wrap and still touch the siding?


Since it is T1-11, will the nails not go into the grooves? So do I need all the battens? I was just going to use them where the sections of wall I build and stand up come together ... say every 12 ft?


So are you not then depending on the siding for any of the structure?


I have seen building with 2 x 4's notched in at a 45 in the corners.


On 16 ft walls, how many and how high would you go? Looking at my drawings, I have windows that start at both ends, 48" in ... Could I put one smaller one at the bottom of the wall and say one 8 ft in at the top?


Last thought ...will I be sacrificing much in the way of insulation by having an air gap rather than a close area for the insulation to sit it? I live in VT ... just 5 days on average above 90 .... we can hit -30 in the winter ... but average winter temp is about 10



Here is a 3d sketch I made last year .... a few changes ... no faux stone at the bottom ... just putting down one row of block to keep the wall off the pad .... regular roll up doors ...



I appreciate any and all advice!


View attachment 3D_image.pdf
 

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Usually a 1x4 let into the studs diagonally at the corners can provide racking resistance otherwise provided by structural sheathing.
 
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Usually a 1x4 let into the studs diagonally at the corners can provide racking resistance otherwise provided by structural sheathing.
And they make steel T-strips for this purpose. All you need is a saw kerf to install. You can put your wall material right over it. They aren't cheap, about $10-12 each but you only need 8. They will keep the building from swaying......so they say.
 

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Buy the metal T bracing, that is much quicker and easier than cutting in a 1x4 for lateral bracing. You square up the wall, chalk a line at a 45 degree angle from top plate to bottom plate, then make a shallow saw cut. You simply drive the bracing into the saw kerf and nail it to each stud.
 

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Usually a 1x4 let into the studs diagonally at the corners can provide racking resistance otherwise provided by structural sheathing.
Yes^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ often done under normal shear situations ...(like excluding seismic or heavy wind loads)

Rather then the let in 1x4, you can also use 2 metal L channels crisscrossed one on each side of wall.....putting both in tension (they dont function in compression.) (I think it's quicker then let in 1x4 as it only takes a saw cut to set.)

House wrap does breeth...but I'd be reticent to put on both sides, unless someone else knows better about that assembly. Hate to make a moisture sandwich.

Again, without being an engineer, I would think going horizontal on your inside walls would be beneficial to shear issues...however more difficult to clean at least in your wood shop section.

And, I'M JELOUS...:wink2::smile:

Best
 

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Discussion Starter #10
THANKS !!!!!!!!!!


Awesome solution ... metal TEE bracing it is!


I am still trying to figure out the what to do with insulation and vapor barrier.


We literally just finished building he house. I started putting up poly on the walls and they had me take it off.


No vapor barrier. We calked every sheet of drywall onto the studs. We then used a special paint. All specified by an energy engineer supplied by the state (VT is big on energy savings).


I actually have another post up trying to figure that out ... looks like blown in cellulose for the ceiling and fiberglass batts for the walls .. nothing fancy.



I would go the same way but don't want to use drywall in the shop. Plywood would be fine ... or T1-11 ... or ????


Something easy to put up and durable .... I did manage to launch a 2 x 4 out of a radial arm saw once :surprise: ... I tried not to do that ever again.


Here is another picture of the pad ... I was insulating the edge and adding a perimeter drain. The house is in the background. Mill's, lathes, ... all in the transport trailer beside the house waiting for the shop.


Thanks again .... Mike
P1150528.jpg
 

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OK .... you definitely have my interest ...


1 So, I think what you are doing is creating an air gap or drainage plane behind the siding?


2 I was going to use house wrap ... actually, I have been thinking of using it inside and outside ... people seem to be frowning on poly inside as the shop will then not let out moisture.


3 With only a 1/2" gap, will the fiberglass batts push out on the wrap and still touch the siding?


4 Since it is T1-11, will the nails not go into the grooves? So do I need all the battens? I was just going to use them where the sections of wall I build and stand up come together ... say every 12 ft?


5 So are you not then depending on the siding for any of the structure?


6 I have seen building with 2 x 4's notched in at a 45 in the corners.


7 On 16 ft walls, how many and how high would you go? Looking at my drawings, I have windows that start at both ends, 48" in ... Could I put one smaller one at the bottom of the wall and say one 8 ft in at the top?


8 Last thought ...will I be sacrificing much in the way of insulation by having an air gap rather than a close area for the insulation to sit it? I live in VT ... just 5 days on average above 90 .... we can hit -30 in the winter ... but average winter temp is about 10



Here is a 3d sketch I made last year .... a few changes ... no faux stone at the bottom ... just putting down one row of block to keep the wall off the pad .... regular roll up doors ...



I appreciate any and all advice!


View attachment 589875
1. yes an air gap we call it rainscreening.



2. I have not seen it used inside, there are kinds of arguments on the VB inside, the important part is complete air blocking, if you don't use VB find electrical boxes made for exterior walls, they have gaskets or they seal to the wall board.



3. I would use rock wool, it is better at keeping it's shape.



4. I suggested real plywood and real nails to get the structure you want.

And the battens hide the nails and cover the gap between sheets.

We never sheet a wall when building off concrete, if the foundation is out just a little you can no correct it.

We would stick frame those walls in place . yes even 16 ft high.



5. yes the plywood would be structure



6 yes the steel ones talked about would be easier.



7. i have not enough experience with that to comment but structured plywood would cancel the need.



8 the air gap is between the studs and plywood so, you don't lose insulation space.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
WOW ... wish I had you guys around when I built the house!


I learned the hard way ... had to double up floor joists .. replaced two 12" LVL's with three 18" LVL's ... found 12 "small" gas leaks .... I could go on and on .....


The house is "right" now but it took 7 years to finish!


Honestly, my biggest mistake was listening to the sub contractors I hired. I would have a plan .. then get talked out of it by someone ... and I made the mistake of thinking they knew more than I did.


Don't want to go through that again. I am making a plan and staying with it.


Thanks again for all the info!


Mike
 

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The sheathing can also be attached on the inner side of the studs. I did that at my house as it only was built with the T1-11 panels on the exterior and I have a second story in effect over a 8' tall subspace. Sheathing to be effective needs to be nailed and not screwed in place and the nails should be every 6 inches.

Best to bite the bullet and go with the stronger siding.
 

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WOW ... wish I had you guys around when I built the house!


I learned the hard way ... had to double up floor joists .. replaced two 12" LVL's with three 18" LVL's ... found 12 "small" gas leaks .... I could go on and on .....


The house is "right" now but it took 7 years to finish!


Honestly, my biggest mistake was listening to the sub contractors I hired. I would have a plan .. then get talked out of it by someone ... and I made the mistake of thinking they knew more than I did.


Don't want to go through that again. I am making a plan and staying with it.


Thanks again for all the info!


Mike
I think you are making the same mistake again, getting advice from who ever and mixing advice with what sounds good and on a better budget.

You need some one on site that will tell you what you need to do to make it right.

Then it is fair to ask how to do things but deciding what needs to be done should not be some guy's opinion.
 
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