[tstex]

Hello to all,

Wanted to determine if anyone has learned of successful way to suppress electrical surges that could negatively an electrical motor on a subpanel to our houses main panel.

My current set-up are two 200amp services in my garage, then a 70amp breaker comes off one of these services to supply current to my pool control panel. The pool control panel has 6 breakers that service the various devices. Specifically, a Sq-D double pole 20amp GCFI breaker provide the sole power to a variable speed pump [VSP] for the pool. My PS-8 control panel has no more breaker slots.

So, I was seeking advice from those that have had a successful campaign in protecting devices like my VSP from electrical surges/spikes. Also, all my equipment is under warranty from manufacturer for a period of 3 yrs; install date is Feb 2015.

Thank you for your feedback. Regards, tstex

 

[MrElectricianTV]

Hello to all,

Wanted to determine if anyone has learned of successful way to suppress electrical surges that could negatively an electrical motor on a subpanel to our houses main panel.

My current set-up are two 200amp services in my garage, then a 70amp breaker comes off one of these services to supply current to my pool control panel. The pool control panel has 6 breakers that service the various devices. Specifically, a Sq-D double pole 20amp GCFI breaker provide the sole power to a variable speed pump [VSP] for the pool. My PS-8 control panel has no more breaker slots.

So, I was seeking advice from those that have had a successful campaign in protecting devices like my VSP from electrical surges/spikes. Also, all my equipment is under warranty from manufacturer for a period of 3 yrs; install date is Feb 2015.

Thank you for your feedback. Regards, tstex

I would install a motor starter to protect the motor from burnout. It protects the motor for its specific amp draw.

Good surge protection begins with good grounding. Make sure all of your ground rod and water pipe ground connections are in place and tight. For lightning protection you could install a ground rod at the pool sub-panel.

Is the pool panel designed to accept twin circuit breakers? If so you can install a surge protector there. If not, put one in the main panel that has the breaker for the pool panel.

 

[tstex]

Thank you John.

First, I'll answer your questions:
* Yes, everything is grounded quite well. There are copper home-runs from every piece of pool equipment to the rebar in the pool decking, and a grounding rod at pool panel and two at dual house 200amp services. And, everything is tight at both equip pad and inside the buss-board.
* Next, there is no room inside the pool panel. It allows for 6 breakers and they are max'ed out bc I have all my pumps on their own DB 20amp GCFI Sq-D Breakers. All my equipment has plenty of both start-up and operating amps w plenty of amps to spare. I have a 70amp breaker in Panel A next to Panel B. The 70amp makes about a 20-25ft h-run to the pool panel on the other side of the garage wall. All the equipment is w/in 8-10 ft of pool panel. There are 4 empty double slots right above the 70amp breaker, and 5 on the other side in Panel A.

Next, I am not familiar w a motor starter [I have not googled it, but will. Here is a link to the VSP spec's as far amp's, all wiring , etc.

Pool Pump Hayward SP3400VSP:

https://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/EcoStar.pdf

If you need anything else john, pls let me know?

thanks again, tstex

 

[MrElectricianTV]

Thank you John.

First, I'll answer your questions:
* Yes, everything is grounded quite well. There are copper home-runs from every piece of pool equipment to the rebar in the pool decking, and a grounding rod at pool panel and two at dual house 200amp services. And, everything is tight at both equip pad and inside the buss-board.
* Next, there is no room inside the pool panel. It allows for 6 breakers and they are max'ed out bc I have all my pumps on their own DB 20amp GCFI Sq-D Breakers. All my equipment has plenty of both start-up and operating amps w plenty of amps to spare. I have a 70amp breaker in Panel A next to Panel B. The 70amp makes about a 20-25ft h-run to the pool panel on the other side of the garage wall. All the equipment is w/in 8-10 ft of pool panel. There are 4 empty double slots right above the 70amp breaker, and 5 on the other side in Panel A.

Next, I am not familiar w a motor starter [I have not googled it, but will. Here is a link to the VSP spec's as far amp's, all wiring , etc.

Pool Pump Hayward SP3400VSP:

https://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/EcoStar.pdf

If you need anything else john, pls let me know?

thanks again, tstex

Your pump motor is probably thermally protected so a motor starter may be redundant in this case, but it couldn't hurt. Check the motor nameplate.

If your pool panel is a 6/12 panel you can install twin circuit breakers. Check the panel label. Square D makes a little rolling pin that fits between two twin circuit breaker handles to make them double pole.

 

[tstex]

Will do, thanks John

 

[Wirenuting]

A Variable Speed driven motor should not be connected to a motor starter, damage to the drive can accure. Let the units drive control the pumps speed and start up.

Whole house surge protectors are available, but keep in mind that a nearby lighting strike is more likely to cause damage. Unfortunately there is no protection from that on a properly grounded system.

Follow the manufactures installation instructions and keep the paperwork for warrante repairs if needed.
Hayward is a great company. They stand by their products and have sent me replacement parts for my pool long past the warrante period.

 

[tstex]

Thanks Wire-n...I would also like to know how you finessed getting parts past your warranty period? that's quite a task in this day and age. So far they have honored everything...

Yes, w lightening, all bets are off. I have to try managing for the norm and not the exception; mainly what comes thru my utility service line and any self-generated interfere w internal devices.

 

[Wirenuting]

Thanks Wire-n...I would also like to know how you finessed getting parts past your warranty period? that's quite a task in this day and age. So far they have honored everything...

Yes, w lightening, all bets are off. I have to try managing for the norm and not the exception; mainly what comes thru my utility service line and any self-generated interfere w internal devices.

I just email and explain what part went bad. I.e.: safety interlock relay on PC board for their gas fired pool heater.
Being able to tell them the subcomponent that went bad lets them know I'm not just a home owner who goofed. They know the failure rate of each part. Besides, a little fluff and honey in the email works better then a screaming mad, "It's junk" complaint.

Now when the Heaters draft fan died they told me pay for a new one. Maybe I shouldn't have told them about the lady bugs packed inside it that year. LoL

 

[tstex]

Yes, honey goes much further than vinegar. I have the H400FD 400,000btu heater. I have heard the boards go bad more than expected. You also have to run them periodically. I just replaced the motor on the SP3400VSP. It was 15 months old. I have replaced the same LED pool light twice. It's going to be expensive after 3 yr warranty is over...

 

[Wirenuting]

Yes, honey goes much further than vinegar. I have the H400FD 400,000btu heater. I have heard the boards go bad more than expected. You also have to run them periodically. I just replaced the motor on the SP3400VSP. It was 15 months old. I have replaced the same LED pool light twice. It's going to be expensive after 3 yr warranty is over...

I had the 125k heater. The board only went out 3 times in 15 years.
I had the pump & heater hooked to a time clock also. The pump came on 5 min prior and ran for 5 minutes longer then the heater enable. This way I insured the heater wouldn't run with no flow. The model heater I had only used a pressure switch as proof of flow. I never trusted it. I do a lot of big building heat/cooling work and have seen to many fail.

The heat exchanger had a small SS deverting vane on the inside of the inflow to the heater. This broke free after about 10 years and would tap the pipe on start up. It never blocked flow as it was to small. But it did lessen the efficiency of the heater. The manual doesn't show it, but it can be seen/felt on the inlet side if your finger is long enough. I read that this issue was addressed in a later model.

I never gave a thought to expense. Seeing the grandkids and wife smile was good enough for me. It was a cheaper hobby then rebuilding a car or learning how to fly. LoL

 

[Venkman83]

A Variable Speed driven motor should not be connected to a motor starter, damage to the drive can accure. Let the units drive control the pumps speed and start up.

Whole house surge protectors are available, but keep in mind that a nearby lighting strike is more likely to cause damage. Unfortunately there is no protection from that on a properly grounded system.

Follow the manufactures installation instructions and keep the paperwork for warrante repairs if needed.
Hayward is a great company. They stand by their products and have sent me replacement parts for my pool long past the warrante period.

Great advice, was in a similar situation last year

 

[Jim Port]

Just a side note, all the copper from all the pool equipment is a bond, not a ground . Entirely different purpose.

 

[gregzoll]

It would be only 200 amp service, not two 200 amp. Each breaker protects a leg 180° out of phase of the other.

Surge protection for VSP motors is not cheap. Your best bet is to have the utility install one that goes between the meter and its pan. The addon units for breaker panels are meant to be as close to the main disconnect on the panel. They are not meant for heavy loads like pumps, etc.

 

[Jim Port]

It would be only 200 amp service, not two 200 amp. Each breaker protects a leg 180° out of phase of the other.

My current set-up are two 200amp services in my garage, then a 70amp breaker comes off one of these services to supply current to my pool control panel. The pool control panel has 6 breakers that service the various devices. Specifically, a Sq-D double pole 20amp GCFI breaker provide the sole power to a variable speed pump [VSP] for the pool. My PS-8 control panel has no more breaker slots.

The OP clearly stated they had two 200 amp panels and now you tell them they are wrong. Did you drive over to see this or are you psychic?

It is one thing to disagree with the professionals on the site, but to tell the Op they are wrong is really stretching things. Why would the Op lie about their setup?

 

[ddawg16]

Motor starters on VFD's is pretty much the norm. However, the 'norm' is to not turn off the starter until the VFD has stopped.

I do this kind of design on a regular basis. 2 HP up to 1000 Hp.

I should clarify a term. When I say 'motor starter', I'm also saying contactor. Pretty much the same thing.

In a typical VFD input setup, you will have a ckt breaker for inrush and short ckt protection. The contactor or motor stater will have thermal overloads if it's feeding a motor directly. For a VFD, no thermal overload.

The VFD is essentially a AC to DC to AC converter. It' really forgiving on input voltage. For example, on smaller scales, they are used as phase converters...single phase 240 Vac going in, 3ph 240Vac going out. This is commonly done when the cost of replacing a 3ph motor with a single ph is more than the cost of the VFD.

Anyway, as I said, the VFD is pretty tough. However, it's also real noisy. Remember my comment above about AC to DC to AC? Translation, huge harmonics off the VFD. A good VFD will have line conditioners (inductive chokes) on the input and output. Lacking these, you will get harmonics back fed into your AC supply system.

In the real world....most of the stuff you have will not be bothered. The norm now is for solid state switching supplies. Basically, AC to DC converters. They are operating in the 50Khz + range....the harmonics from a VFD is not going to bother it.

Your biggest danger in the home environment is lightning strikes, loose neutrals and MWBC's.

If you take a direct or near direct lightning hit.....well, that is why you have insurance.

A whole house surge protector is not a waste of money. Would I buy one? No. I protect my 'good stuff' with a local surge protector outlet strip.

 

[Wirenuting]

Motor starters on VFD's is pretty much the norm. However, the 'norm' is to not turn off the starter until the VFD has stopped.

I do this kind of design on a regular basis. 2 HP up to 1000 Hp.

I should clarify a term. When I say 'motor starter', I'm also saying contactor. Pretty much the same thing.

In a typical VFD input setup, you will have a ckt breaker for inrush and short ckt protection. The contactor or motor stater will have thermal overloads if it's feeding a motor directly. For a VFD, no thermal overload.

The VFD is essentially a AC to DC to AC converter. It' really forgiving on input voltage. For example, on smaller scales, they are used as phase converters...single phase 240 Vac going in, 3ph 240Vac going out. This is commonly done when the cost of replacing a 3ph motor with a single ph is more than the cost of the VFD.

Anyway, as I said, the VFD is pretty tough. However, it's also real noisy. Remember my comment above about AC to DC to AC? Translation, huge harmonics off the VFD. A good VFD will have line conditioners (inductive chokes) on the input and output. Lacking these, you will get harmonics back fed into your AC supply system.

In the real world....most of the stuff you have will not be bothered. The norm now is for solid state switching supplies. Basically, AC to DC converters. They are operating in the 50Khz + range....the harmonics from a VFD is not going to bother it.

Your biggest danger in the home environment is lightning strikes, loose neutrals and MWBC's.

If you take a direct or near direct lightning hit.....well, that is why you have insurance.

A whole house surge protector is not a waste of money. Would I buy one? No. I protect my 'good stuff' with a local surge protector outlet strip.

Your talking about a VFD with a bypass having a contactor, correct.
I've yet to see or install a VFD that had a contactor on the output side of the drive.