Photo of sub panel should be attached.
Sub Panel without neutral
I recently converted from eletric heat to NG heat in my home When the handler unit was replaced, the electrition installed a sub panel using the existing 60amp 2 conductor w/ ground that us to feed the old electric furnace. He installed a 20a 110v breaker in the sub panel feeding the new air handler. All this is in my attic.
Since then I have converted the water heater to tankless. It needs a 15A 110v circuit. I was planning on adding another circuit out of the panel but got concerned when I saw the sub panel was fed with 2 hots and a ground (no neutral)
Does the sub panel currently meet code? Can I add the additional circuit for the tankless WH.
Thanks, Dan
Since then I have converted the water heater to tankless. It needs a 15A 110v circuit. I was planning on adding another circuit out of the panel but got concerned when I saw the sub panel was fed with 2 hots and a ground (no neutral)
Does the sub panel currently meet code? Can I add the additional circuit for the tankless WH.
Thanks, Dan
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Not to code and not safe. Subs are wired with 4 conductor wire. Since you don't have a neutral, current is returning on the bare ground wire.
Some real electricians will comment soon. Are you sure who ever did your work was a electrician?
Some real electricians will comment soon. Are you sure who ever did your work was a electrician?
Yes, TECL licensed
As it is now it is not correct for the reason above. It could be rewired so you would have a 120 volt only panel. Half of the breaker slots will be dead.
I should give him a call.
So, didn't the old furnace do the same thing internal for the 110v transformer for the controls. Just curious.
So, didn't the old furnace do the same thing internal for the 110v transformer for the controls. Just curious.
Electric furnaces come with 240 transformers.
He should be reported to the licensing agency.
In addition to creating a shock hazard, it would be too easy to overload the ground that is serving as the neutral.
In addition to creating a shock hazard, it would be too easy to overload the ground that is serving as the neutral.
Also kind of sloppy work for a pro. But of course the missing neutral trumps all else.
Already been said, but no way is that remotely acceptable.
I'm not sure if feeding a sub without a neutral is a violation but there are plenty of violations I know for sure in the picture. The biggest IMO is installing a line to neutral branch circuit without a proper neutral feeder.
I'm not sure if feeding a sub without a neutral is a violation but there are plenty of violations I know for sure in the picture. The biggest IMO is installing a line to neutral branch circuit without a proper neutral feeder.
If the panel were initially installed as disconnect for dedicated equipment that didn't require a neutral like 240V base board heating or a HW tank then maybe acceptable. I would have needed clarification on that one.
But we can see the problem it created if that were the case.
Maybe I worded it wrong. When I look at the picture and count up violations, the lack of a neutral feeding the panel is not one of them AFAIK. Maybe there's a resi rule I have forgotten.
It is definitely in need of work either way
It is definitely in need of work either way
So in your area, your allowed to use the ground as a neutral? NEC doesn't permit it.Maybe I worded it wrong. When I look at the picture and count up violations, the lack of a neutral feeding the panel is not one of them AFAIK. Maybe there's a resi rule I have forgotten.
It is definitely in need of work either way
That's not even close to what I'm trying to say. AFAIK, a sub panel isn't required to have a neutral. The violation is that the EGC is carrying a neutral load. That's being done because there's no neutral feeder and the contractor was most likely either lazy, uneducated or in some kind of bind. The violation is the line to neutral branch circuit, not the feeder. The solution is to either feed the sub with a proper grounded conductor or only have line to line branch circuits out of this panel. For instance a 240 volt to 120 volt transformer. Running a proper grounded conductor is the better option IMO.
It would be easy enough to fix. Make it a 120 only sub. Use the white as the neutral instead of a second hot. Add a separate ground bar. The white would have to be removed from the breaker in the supply panel and moved to the neutral bar.
Looks like one hot,a neutral and a ground to me. OP can look in the main panel and see if the white is landed on the neutral bus.
Looks like one hot,a neutral and a ground to me. OP can look in the main panel and see if the white is landed on the neutral bus.
no,
here is similar box that is labeled
http://waterheatertimer.org/images/IMG_1789-subpanel-2-1000.jpg
I thought that at first glance. Look close and you see the white is run past the neutral lug down to the hot lug.Looks like one hot,a neutral and a ground to me. OP can look in the main panel and see if the white is landed on the neutral bus.
How is a sub panel supposed to work if it doesn't have a neutral. I think maybe you are confusing a disconnect for a 240 volt device with a sub panel. They are not the same thing.That's not even close to what I'm trying to say. AFAIK, a sub panel isn't required to have a neutral.
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
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