[GeorgeNS]

Hope someone on this Forum can help me with this. just started renovating my basement. after tearing down the paneling surrounding my steam pipe that circles the whole basement ceiling, i came across this radiator looking thing. I'm thinking it functions to cool off the steam on the return since this section pipe has a downward grade into a vertical pipe that is jointed to the return. Is it safe to cover this up (i.e. insulate the rest of the pipe and box it in) or do I need to allow for airflow on this portion of pipe by putting a grate of some kind on this section? any help you can give is greatly appreciated.

PS, if anyone has pics of a good way to hide these pipes, they are greatly welcome

 

[COLDIRON]

Taking a guess by my past and the information you provided.

Looks like a final condenser coil to ensure all the return has turned to water before it enters back to the boiler system.

I wouldn't cover that it could cause you problems down the road if all the steam don't condense.

That is made to be open to the air.

 

[AllanJ]

This acts like a finned baseboard heater and allows the pipe to heat the room rather than go through the expense of adding another radiator.

Was the old paneling that hid that pipe part of an original ceiling as opposed to a basement finishing years later?

It's okay to cover it up if you don't need that much heat, but for continued use as a heat source it needs a hollow soffit with continuous louvers both on the bottom against the wall and as high up as possible on the side facing in.

Uncondensed steam will not cause problems if it doesn't return to the boiler. (After the boiler cycles off, steam still in the pipes and radiators will not remain uncondensed for long.)

Any insulation in a soffit covering the pipe should be inorganic (such as fiber glass) since organic material (such as cellulose) against the hot pipe will biodegrade somewhat faster and then perhaps lose its insulating qualities by crumbling into a smaller pile below the pipe.

 

[joecaption]

I would frame it in and use something like this to cover it up.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=perforated+metal+sheets&qpvt=perforated+metal+sheets&FORM=IGRE

Some simple picture framing looking trim would cover up the edges.

 

[GeorgeNS]

Thanks Allan, really appreciate it. There was a badly constructed frame with wood paneling on the front, foil lined around the pipe and an opening below it that the previous owner used peg board to hide the pipe. I was thinking of insulating the regular pipe with fiberglass sheathing and framing a soffit around it like you suggested, but didn't know if there was a method to the previous owners madness with the pegboard (thought the pipe needed to have some airflow for some reason, which is contrary to what I thought you should do with heat pipes which is insulate them to prevent heat loss). You can't really tell from that angle, but there's about two feet of space from the wall to the pipe. i'll post a pic.

 

[GeorgeNS]

thanks joe, I like that idea for the radiator fin portion.

 

[GeorgeNS]

Different angle on the pipe

Here's a different angle on that same pipe

 

[COLDIRON]

This acts like a finned baseboard heater and allows the pipe to heat the room rather than go through the expense of adding another radiator.

Was the old paneling that hid that pipe part of an original ceiling as opposed to a basement finishing years later?

It's okay to cover it up if you don't need that much heat, but for continued use as a heat source it needs a hollow soffit with continuous louvers both on the bottom against the wall and as high up as possible on the side facing in.

Uncondensed steam will not cause problems if it doesn't return to the boiler. (After the boiler cycles off, steam still in the pipes and radiators will not remain uncondensed for long.)

Any insulation in a soffit covering the pipe should be inorganic (such as fiber glass) since organic material (such as cellulose) against the hot pipe will biodegrade somewhat faster and then perhaps lose its insulating qualities by crumbling into a smaller pile below the pipe.

Alan, The statement regarding uncondensed steam, don't you have that the wrong way? And it should read uncondensed steam will cause problems if it returns to the boiler? THX

 

[AllanJ]

Alan, The statement regarding uncondensed steam, don't you have that the wrong way? And it should read uncondensed steam will cause problems if it returns to the boiler? THX

No and no.

Also, uncondensed steam will not cause problems if it were to return to the boiler but that is academic because it won't return uncondensed.

Banging in steam heating systems is usually caused by settling of the building where steam pipes lose the correct pitch, condensate pools up in nearly horizontal pipe runs now sloped the wrong way, and new steam has difficulty going past these constricted areas on up to the radiators.

 

[paintdrying]

I always wondered why all that banging.

 

[COLDIRON]

I still say uncondensed steam returning to the boiler can cause major problems. And it can happen on systems that don't have the proper pitch and proper piping.

That's why they have steam traps on high pressure Boiler's.

And steam traps around many buildings with condensate return systems.

Don't ever want steam to return to the boiler in a vapor state.

And it can happen.

 

[eclark]

I'm assuming this is one pipe steam and that the trap coldiron is talking about is the Hartford loop back at the boiler. Steam traps are only on two pipe systems, which I'm less familiar with. I've never heard of how vapor can return to the boiler since there should always be water in the boiler and because steam condenses so quickly. There should never be enough pressure to push steam in a vapor state into the boiler. A properly functioning steam system should never operate at more than 2 psi before the pressuretrol (or vaporstat) shuts it down. Even the empire state building only uses 2 psi. Hightler than that is a waste of fuel and starts getting dangerous as you approach 15 or 20 psi. High pressure steam should only exist in industrial settings.

I don't see any harm in boxing this in other than creating a warm spot behind finished construction and even that isn't the end of the world or even unusual. There are plenty if radiators that have covers over them. This piece of slant fin was probably installed after the rest of the system to warm up the basement. If you don't need or want it then you can remove and replace with a piece of black iron pipe or you can leave it alone and cover it up.

For anyone who wants really good steam information, check out some of the books by Dan Holohan. He also has a website and forum over at heatinghelp.com.

 

[GeorgeNS]

Thanks eclark. It's a one pipe system. the thread kinda took a turn with the discussion on steam returning to the boiler. I don't see how that's possible in my homes configuration, but i'lll leave it to the experts to discuss that portion.

 

[eclark]

Sounds good. If you're ever inclined that other board is a great resource. I've learned a ton about my own steam system from there and Dan's books. Steam gets a bad rep but I really like my system now that its tuned up.

 

[GeorgeNS]

i bought the house 3 years ago and was going to convert to baseboard or HVAC but found that steam heated up the house really quickly and the air wasn't as dry so i kept it. only problem i've had is on the return pipe, seems the previous owners never drained the system during the off season and i've had to put a temporary clamp on it till I replace the whole 35 foot section during this renovation.

 

[eclark]

I bought my house a year and a half ago and am in the process of renovating a room at a time. I was considering installing radiant pex in each room so that one by one they had the infrastructure in place for a conversion to hydronic radiant down the road. I decided against it though because I like how quickly the steam responds, because the steam heat with my existing cast iron rads works well and because I like that it won't use hardly any backup power capacity in the event of a power outage. No circulatory and no electronic ignition. As I get it tuned the efficiency has gotten much better and as I add insulation to the mains and to the house it will only continue to improve.

Draining the system isn't necessary per se but any time you add make up water make sure to run the boiler immediately after to get at least 10 min of steaming out of it. That gets the dissolved oxygen out if the water, which is a major contributing factor to the corrosion of the boiler block and the associated system piping. And while the wet returns may eventually rot out, the rest of the system gets a really thorough steam cleaning a few times a day for at least a few months out of the year. I've seen some of my piping that I believe to be original to my house (1928) and it looks almost brand new inside. Once you get it where you want it, all you need to do us check the system water level and make sure your vents are working. Great stuff I tell ya.

 

[GeorgeNS]

Eclark, here's my progress in one room in the basement. I built the soffits around the pipe, but made the decision to keep a 7 inch opening at the bottom of the drywall with the idea that if I needed to get to the return, I wouldn't have to break through the rock to get to it. Now I think it was a poorly thought out plan since I can't find molding that wide (I know, should've thought it through) Any ideas?

 

[GeorgeNS]

 

[eclark]

Well 7" might be enough or it might not. Maybe you'll find out and maybe you won't. I like the idea of leaving it accessible though and applaud you for thinking ahead at all. And i like that you kept the steam. You can use multiple pieces to trim out your base. Either one stacked directly on top of the other or set one high against the bottom of the Sheetrock and another in front of it set against the floor with an inch or so of overlap to nail thru. Put shims behind the unsupported portion of the bottom trim to fur it out flush with the front of the upper piece. I would stack them if this were at my house. Use 1x6 at the bottom and get a smaller piece of decorative moulding to cap it and close up the gap at the top and that would look good in my house. YMMV. There are a million ways to skin this cat.

 

[GeorgeNS]

I like steam way better. most of my friends have HVAC systems that are way to dry. I helped a friend build a mohaganny dining room table that in which i urged him to acclimate the wood in his place for at least 2 months before we started working on it. He didn't listen and most of the joints split or cracked thanks to the wood shrinking. I'll take pics of what i can macgyver out of this. thanks again