[Jbake]

I've got a 12-2 wire sitting loose in an attic. It's connected to a switch on the ground floor. I'm planning on running a ceiling fan from this wire using 12-3. I'm assuming that I can splice both the black and red from the 12-3 to the black in the 12-2 and white to white. Is this correct? Also, since there is no ground wire in the existing 12-2, what do I do with the ground in the 12-3? Connect it to the metal junction box that I plan to use? Thanks for any help.

 

[joed]

Since there is no ground wire you can not extend that circuit.

 

[Jbake]

A shame. I guess I'll just cap the wires and find a different source to run the ceiling fan from. Thanks for the info, Joe.

 

[Oldmaster]

Although the fan should be grounded the code, under existing conditions allows non- grounded circuits. Not sure I'd be worried about an ungrounded fan.

 

[rjniles]

Although the fan should be grounded the code, under existing conditions allows non- grounded circuits. Not sure I'd be worried about an ungrounded fan.

Yes ungrounded circuits are grandfathered and can be continued to be used, it is a code violation to extend that circuit.

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[Oldmaster]

Please enlighten me. What is the code article number referring to this? Thank you

 

[miamicuse]

I guess I am not following the OP's intent. Even if extending the 12-2 is allowed, what would be the purpose of extending it with a 12-3? You can't take advantage of the extra conductor anyways, it won't allow you to control the light and fan separately in any case, you still have to do that via a remote or chain pulling. Either use the 12-2 as is or switch all the way to a 12-3.

 

[rjniles]

The OP is confusing 12/2 because it had 3 conductors including the bare ground with with 12/3.

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[rjniles]

Please enlighten me. What is the code article number referring to this? Thank you

The question is can you extend an ungrounded branch circuit without a grounding conductor?

Or, can you extend an ungrounded circuit without an equipment grounding conductor as long as you provide GFCI protection and mark it “GFCI Protected, No Equipment Ground”?

Well the answer to both of these questions is “NO” . When extending circuits we need to now upgrade to grounding.


250.130(C)

 

[joed]

I'm assuming that I can splice both the black and red from the 12-3 to the black in the 12-2 and white to white.

If he has a black and a red he is not confusing 12/3 for 12/2.

 

[rjniles]

If he has a black and a red he is not confusing 12/3 for 12/2.

Mis-read his post, he has 12/2 and is trying to extend with 12/3. Not sure why?

 

[miamicuse]

If he has a black and a red he is not confusing 12/3 for 12/2.

Mis-read his post, he has 12/2 and is trying to extend with 12/3. Not sure why?

I am not sure either. Unless the 12-3 he is talking about is not really another segment of 12-3, but the actual wire attached to the ceiling fan fixture, but then I have never seen those fixtures having 12AWG conductors usually much thinner.

 

[Oldmaster]

Regarding 250:130 c This is what the code refers to as a permissive rule. Which basically means it is permitted but not mandatory. Consider 80:9B and C. In a practical sense it would be impossible to keep everything up to code because the code is dynamic in it is always changing and evolving. However, any work done should meet the present code but the intent is not that circuits etc be abandoned because they do not meet present code. We call it "Grandfatherd ". What does one do with knob and tube where there is no ground?

 

[rjniles]

Regarding 250:130 c This is what the code refers to as a permissive rule. Which basically means it is permitted but not mandatory. Consider 80:9B and C. In a practical sense it would be impossible to keep everything up to code because the code is dynamic in it is always changing and evolving. However, any work done should meet the present code but the intent is not that circuits etc be abandoned because they do not meet present code. We call it "Grandfatherd ". What does one do with knob and tube where there is no ground?

K&T is treated the same way as ungrounded Romex, you can continue to use but you can't extend it.

250.130 C specifically addresses the requirement to provide grounding if you must extend it. It lists the methods you can use to provide the required grounding.

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[Missouri Bound]

OK, I'll bite.
Has anyone ever seen 12/2 without a ground?
Personally I have never and I'm and old dude.

 

[Oldmaster]

But it doesn't say you must ground. Shall be permitted is different than must be or will be which are mandatory. Guess we'll just disagree .

 

[rjniles]

OK, I'll bite.

Has anyone ever seen 12/2 without a ground?

Personally I have never and I'm and old dude.

You must not be old enough, it was all there was when the original Romex came out. Even into the 60s with plastic sheathed Romex, it was common.

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[Missouri Bound]

You must not be old enough, it was all there was when the original Romex came out. Even into the 60s with plastic sheathed Romex, it was common.

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I worked at a hardware store when I was 16...that was late 60's.
Nothing was ungrounded at that time.
I learned something tonight. I thank you.

 

[Missouri Bound]

Jbake
I guess you have an old house with old wiring.
It wouldn't hurt to have it checked out.
What about the outlets in your house.....are they grounded?
I'm thinking that you may have a safety issue to be concerned with.

 

[rjniles]

You must not be old enough, it was all there was when the original Romex came out. Even into the 60s with plastic sheathed Romex, it was common.

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I worked at a hardware store when I was 16...that was late 60's.
Nothing was ungrounded at that time.
I learned something tonight. I thank you.

1962 NEC

210-7. Grounding Receptacles. Receptacles and cord connectors equipped with grounding contacts shall have those contacts effectively grounded. The branch circuit or branch circuit raceway shall include or provide a grounding conductor to which the grounding contacts of the receptacle or cord connector shall be connected. The metal armor of Type AC metal-clad cable, the sheath of aluminum sheathed cable, or a metallic raceway is acceptable as a grounding conductor. See Sections 210-21 (b). 250-45 and 250-59.

It was not until 1962 NEC that grounding was required for all receptacle outlets. Prior to that grounding was only required for selected location starting with the 1947 NEC. EX, laundry, kitchen.

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