Shock problems, from subpanel

4238 Views 17 Replies 8 Participants Last post by J. V., Jun 15, 2009

WesternNY

Discussion Starter · Jun 14, 2009 (Edited)

SO I changed my homes service from an old 60amp to a new 200 amp service, from this panel, a 2 wire service goes to an old barn. One hot, One Neutral. goes from breaker and neutral in house panel up side of house and hooks on the 2 outside wires that run overhead to the barn.

Not knowing which one was which outside when I hooked them up. I took a chance and everything is fine.

I thought if I put the hot on the wire going to the barns ground, the breaker should trip. Right?

From the barns panel, everthing is fine. I think.

I have a circuit that goes to a switch and a gfi outlet. The other day I was running a submersible pump, got shocked when I touched the metal on the pump, thought it was the pump.

Then yesterday I got a tingle when I touched the metal box that the pump was plugged into. Checked it today, couldn't reproduce the tingle.

Later today, I plug a different pump in, and got a shock when I touched any metal part on the pump.

The GFI never tripped. I thought may be a bad ground in the metal box, or could I have crossed wires up when I ran the new wire to the barn feed? Thanks

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ScottR

· #2 · Jun 14, 2009

WesternNY said:
or could I have crossed wires up when I ran the new wire to the barn feed? Thanks

Sounds like that's what happened -- hot and neutral are reversed. Maybe your neutral is bonded to the ground at your sub panel, but you have no fault path back to earth or the main panel.

You can get a receptacle tester @ most home centers/hardware stores for about $5 that would tell you for certain. It's a good tool to have around anyway.

J. V.

· #3 · Jun 14, 2009

WesternNY said:
SO I changed my homes service from an old 60amp to a new 200 amp service, from this panel, a 2 wire service goes to an old barn. One hot, One Neutral. goes from breaker and neutral in house panel up side of house and hooks on the 2 outside wires that run overhead to the barn.

You have no ground and this quite dangerous.

Not knowing which one was which outside when I hooked them up. I took a chance and everything is fine.

No its not. All your receptacles are not correctly polarized. Lamp socket shell are now hot , possibly.

I thought if I put the hot on the wire going to the barns ground, the breaker should trip. Right?

What ground? Two wires indicates you have no ground. If you have a ground rod out there it must be connected to the main service bonding grid (rod and water line) at the main panel and outside service. The ground (EGC) is what carries the fault current and trips the breaker.

From the barns panel, everthing is fine. I think.

The panel is non-compliant if it does not have a 3 or 4 wire feeder. If you are on the 2005 or earlier code cycle 3 wires are sufficient. But I would never pull a 3 wire feeder period.

I have a circuit that goes to a switch and a gfi outlet. The other day I was running a submersible pump, got shocked when I touched the metal on the pump, thought it was the pump.

You have no "Low Impedance" path for ground faults to go to. You are taking unnecessary and potential lethal dose of electricity if you do not correct this setup, bungled job.

Then yesterday I got a tingle when I touched the metal box that the pump was plugged into. Checked it today, couldn't reproduce the tingle.

Do not try to reproduce the tingle. It may be your last.

Later today, I plug a different pump in, and got a shock when I touched any metal part on the pump.

No, grounding system. Thats your problem.

The GFI never tripped. I thought may be a bad ground in the metal box, or could I have crossed wires up when I ran the new wire to the barn feed? Thanks

GFCI's work without a ground present. Thats why you see no issues with your GFCI receptacle.

For the time being feed the GFCI first. This will protect you until you can get this corrected.

220/221

· #4 · Jun 14, 2009

I thought if I put the hot on the wire going to the barns ground, the breaker should trip. Right?

I thought I would be a retired rock star at age 30.

We were both wrong.

Your polarity is reversed but simply swithing it won't fix all your problems, it will just make the symptoms go away. You also probably have a bootlegged ground somewhere.

You need to get a voltage tester, take some things apart and look into the barn wiring.

WesternNY

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 14, 2009

Thanks for the replies. I have just a little experience with electrical work.

The 2 wires to the barn is they way it has been for 20+ years may be more. I only replaced the cable from the breaker to the outside wires, as the old one, the sheath was worn off and bare wires exposed. Like I said I could have put the hot wire on the neutral wire that goes to the barn.

I check the barns panel. The bus bars are hot. I checked 2 receptacles, hot with tester in the hot side of outlet and one on neutral side, also ok when on hot side of receptacle and one in the ground. When tester is on ground and neutral, nothing.

I know the wire overhead from house to barn needs to be replaced, just dont have the time or money at this point.

220/221

· #6 · Jun 14, 2009

I know the wire overhead from house to barn needs to be replaced, just dont have the time or money at this point.

Well........keep you kids out of the barn because a funeral will be very expensive.

If polarity is right, you have an open neutral and a bootlegged ground somewhere.

WesternNY

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jun 14, 2009

220/221 said:
Well........keep you kids out of the barn because a funeral will be very expensive.

If polarity is right, you have an open neutral and a bootlegged ground somewhere.

Well, the power is tuned off to the barn from the house panel.

Would you be as so kind to define an open neutral and a botlegged ground?

The barn panel has a wire going to a pipe driven in the ground, it is not up to code.

Gigs

· #8 · Jun 14, 2009

WesternNY said:
Not knowing which one was which outside when I hooked them up. I took a chance and everything is fine.

No, no, no.

Just because something works doesn't mean it's right. There's at least a dozen ways that electrical can be very wrong and unsafe and still work.

Never just guess and see if it works.

Gigs

· #9 · Jun 14, 2009

WesternNY said:
Well, the power is tuned off to the barn from the house panel.

Would you be as so kind to define an open neutral and a botlegged ground?

The barn panel has a wire going to a pipe driven in the ground, it is not up to code.

The ground rod won't trip the breaker because it's way too high resistance. It's basically only there for lightning and static protection, it doesn't serve any purpose otherwise.

So you have a two wire 120v circuit going out, no ground... Or do you have 220v going out there, no ground no neutral?

Either way, this is all a really bad idea. You need 4 wires to do this right, and 3 wires to even do it anywhere near safely.

220/221

· #10 · Jun 14, 2009

To explain it simply, the power comes to the barn on the hot and goes back on the neutral.

If the power is getting to the barn but not back to the source on the neutral, the electrons will take whatever path to ground that is available.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<...hot
b
a
r
n
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>( open )>>>>>>>>>>neutral
v
v
v
v
ground

A bootlegged ground is where the ground gets attached to the neutral in a recep, switch, panel or who knows where. It can be intentional or accidental.

Open neutral plus bootlegged ground equals current flowing thru metal parts that.

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WesternNY

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jun 14, 2009

Ok Thanks GUYS!

So to fix this, I should run 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground from my house panel, up and overhead, to the barn and down to a panel in the barn?

What size wire would you use, I think 50 amp is enough. Should I buy a new panel for the barn? Do I run 2 grounding rods for the barn too?

Thanks again

spark plug

· #12 · Jun 14, 2009

Mystery of getting shocked on sbpnl.+Gfi n. trppng.

IMHO you [probably] reversed the connection on the GFCI receptacle! i.e. Line/Load, in addition to possibly having reversed the Hot/Neutral wires on the pull to the barn. The GFCI recept. should have tripped when you got shocked by touching the motor frame. Because you produced leakage current. But when you reverse the line/load terminals the outlet will work but will not provide protection, unless it's one of the later "lockout" versions!!!:yes::no

smbol of confusion!) :drink

on't Drink and Drive!!!

Gigs

· #13 · Jun 15, 2009 (Edited)

Ok Thanks GUYS!

So to fix this, I should run 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground from my house panel, up and overhead, to the barn and down to a panel in the barn?

Yes

What size wire would you use, I think 50 amp is enough. Should I buy a new panel for the barn? Do I run 2 grounding rods for the barn too?

How far is it? If it's like 100 feet then 6 gauge copper or 4 gauge aluminum SER cable should be OK.

We don't know what your existing panel looks like.

Two ground rods >6 feet apart is best.

frenchelectrican

· #14 · Jun 15, 2009

Gigs said:
How far is it? If it's like 100 feet then 6 gauge copper or 4 gauge aluminum SE cable should be OK.

We don't know what your existing panel looks like.

Two ground rods >6 feet apart is best.

Gigs ., Just give you a head up the SE is 3 conductor cable while SER is 4 conductor cable that is a crictal part you have to be carefull that all.

Now to OP

The distance between the house and barn if under 100 feet { 30Metre } then Gigs's suggest of conductor size is correct however becarefull if you going overhead or underground route there is three or more diffrent type you can use

For overhead use the quadplex overhead conductors.

For underground Direct burial use the URD quadplex or Mobile home feeder cable

For underground conduit use ., use the THHN/THWN conductors { they are dual rated }

Yeah for ground rods keep them apart 6 foot { 2 metre } apart and keep it out where rain water will get them.
{ you only need #6 (16mm²) will do the task very well }

Merci,Marc

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Gigs

· #15 · Jun 15, 2009

frenchelectrican said:
Gigs ., Just give you a head up the SE is 3 conductor cable while SER is 4 conductor cable that is a crictal part you have to be carefull that all.

Oh, OK thanks.. I will edit my message so no one gets confused.

J. V.

· #16 · Jun 15, 2009

WesternNY said:
Ok Thanks GUYS!

So to fix this, I should run 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground from my house panel, up and overhead, to the barn and down to a panel in the barn?

What size wire would you use, I think 50 amp is enough. Should I buy a new panel for the barn? Do I run 2 grounding rods for the barn too?

Thanks again

Lets make this easy friend. Take pictures of the main panel and the panel in the barn with the covers off. If you know how to use "Windows Paint" you can point at the connections.
You did the right thing by turning off the circuit. When my father-inlaw died last year, I found a similar situation at his house. I turned off the power and cut down all the wires he had strung for TWO outbuildings. He used lamp cord.

InPhase277

· #17 · Jun 15, 2009

J. V. said:
Lets make this easy friend. Take pictures of the main panel and the panel in the barn with the covers off. If you know how to use "Windows Paint" you can point at the connections.
You did the right thing by turning off the circuit. When my father-inlaw died last year, I found a similar situation at his house. I turned off the power and cut down all the wires he had strung for TWO outbuildings. He used lamp cord.

Hopefully, that isn't why he died, right?

J. V.

· #18 · Jun 15, 2009

InPhase277 said:
Hopefully, that isn't why he died, right?

No, he had heart problems. He was the cheapest man I ever met. He would use what he had so he did not have to buy something. My mother-inlaw is still alive and lives in the same house. I have not restored power to either outbuilding as they are structurally in bad shape. I told her not to go in either one. To have them demolished.
When I got to looking around I found a recently installed sub panel in the house I had to replace and bring up to code also. That was installed by some jack leg that gave him the best price, when they upgraded their AC and heating system. I still have alot to do for her. Since I put the right breakers on the right conductors, she said it's always tripping and does not understand why. I think she thinks I did it wrong, as everything ran just fine on 30 amp screw type fuses. The whole house needs re-wiring. All two wire cables. We wish we could get her to move, but you know how people get at this stage in life.

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