[YerDugliness]

Good day, ladies and gents. I'm asking for advice regarding my future electrical endeavors towards installing a hot-tub on a deck outside my house. Right now there is nothing there but dry dirt and buffalo grass, but I have the walls on the back porch "open" right now, due to a recent electrical service upgrade, and want to wire in a circuit from the 200 amp/40 breaker service box to a "cutoff" outside, hopefully a specific hot-tub "box". This project is in a small, SW Kansas town, no codes, no inspectors, therefore nothing to give me any guidance.

So, I have the wiring to essentially the entire house exposed and it makes sense to get the circuit wired in before the plywood/paneling goes back on. I asked at my local Home Depot and they said 240V/50A is the recommended standard, but I'm not sure about the next bit of advice they gave me. They said I could get by with standard 8-2 with ground.

I guess I'm confused, I thought if I might be dealing with circuitry that would be in anything other than a dry location, I would need three wire with ground wiring of the appropraite gauge.

Am I just confused :huh: or would standard 8 gauge, 2 wire with ground be adequate?

Just FYI, this house recently underwent an upgrade from 100 amp overhead service to 200 amp underground service, all professionally installed. The service panel is a Home Depot consumer grade unit and there is plenty of room for expansion.

My main concern is avoiding any installation that might not be adequate for future upgrades. I'd hate to install 8-2 w/g and then need 8-3 w/g the first time I had to have it serviced......I have no interest in taking the cheapest way out, I've already invested too much $$ and time to take shortcuts or jeopardize the project at this stage, but neither do I want to splurge for 8-3 w/g if 8-2 w/g is the recommended standard.

While I'm at it, I'd also like to ask this--let's suppose that 8-2 w/g would be adequate for the hot tub, would running 8-3 w/g allow an extra 120V circuit for some "mood lighting"? If so, that would seal the deal...so to speak.

Thanks to all who will help me learn how to DIY this one correctly!!

Dugly

 

[Scuba_Dave]

50a I went #6 wire, I don't think #8 will work
white neutral, 2 black hots, insulated green ground
GFCI breaker

 

[rgsgww]

There are a lot of requirements for such installs, I will let the sparkies chime in for those.

First of all 8 cannot supply 50 amps. You need 6 for 50 amps.

You will need gfci protection.

I would run a 4 wire setup (plus ground)

 

[DangerMouse]

"get by"? what does the manufacturer of the tub say to use?

DM

oh, and LTNS!

 

[InPhase277]

Your best bet would probably be to run the wiring in 3/4" conduit to a temporary box, until you know what you need when you get the tub. A black, red, and white #6 THHN/THWN with a green #10 THHN/THWN ground would set you up for a maximum of 60 A at 120/240 V. Don't terminate the wiring in the panel until you know what kind of breaker you need. Just tape the ends up and push them out of the way. Don't use romex, and don't listen to the Home Depot idiot.

 

[Jim Port]

The one I wired this morning called for a grounding wire the same size as the circuit conductors. The best bet is to find the requirements for the specific tub you are interested in.

There is also a requirement for a 120V GFI protected receptacle that you should rough in now also. IIRC it neds to be at least 10 foot away from the inside wall of the tub.

Depending on what the tub will sit on you may need to consider the boding issue also.

 

[NolaTigaBait]

The one I wired this morning called for a grounding wire the same size as the circuit conductors

see, i dont understand this...250.122 (i think) says that you need a number 10 for a 50 amp breaker...and it has gfi protection,..whats the deal?...also, inphase says don 't run romex,so obviously if you need a #6 ground, romex would not suffice...

 

[qbert]

Romex is not made to pulled threw conduit. Use stranded thhn or thwn No 6 for a grounding is ok, but not required. You will need a service disconnect in sight of the mtr. I would run 3/4 conduit as suggested to a disconnect fed from a gfci breaker of proper size and bonding all metal water lines to mtr lug. Running a seperate 1/2 inch conduit with no 12 thhn/thwn for a outdoor gfci repticle

 

[NolaTigaBait]

Romex is not made to pulled threw conduit.

its through and i'm not aware of any code that says you CAN"T put romex in tubing, as long as its not a wet or damp location

 

[qbert]

Pulling no 6 throgh 3/4 or 1in conduit better purchase two bottles of soap/lube lol

 

[NolaTigaBait]

Pulling no 6 throgh 3/4 or 1in conduit better purchase two bottles of soap/lube lol

typical, i'm not saying that he SHOULD do it, i was asking about the romex in general, why would you not be ablr to use this method in say new construction....it's done here all the time

 

[qbert]

Typically hot tubs are outdoors. Romex is not made for direct burial/direct sunlight and pulling through pvc,rigid,or imc is not an easy task i am sure people do it just not a standard. Strait runs would be easy first 90 the trouble would start.

 

[InPhase277]

typical, i'm not saying that he SHOULD do it, i was asking about the romex in general, why would you not be ablr to use this method in say new construction....it's done here all the time

Due to the lack of an insulated ground. For pool equipment, the ground is required to be insulated. Romex has a bare ground. To tell the truth, I'm not sure if it translates to hot tubs, but we have always been required to have an insulated ground on pools and hot tubs alike. 250.122 still applies in most cases, so you could use a #10 ground up to 60 A.

 

[NolaTigaBait]

Typically hot tubs are outdoors. Romex is not made for direct burial/direct sunlight and pulling through pvc,rigid,or imc is not an easy task i am sure people do it just not a standard. Strait runs would be easy first 90 the trouble would start.

wow, is this guy serious...did i not say earlier that romex CANNOT be run in damp or wet locations???...can you read?...i know it would be hard, jeeeez....

 

[NolaTigaBait]

Due to the lack of an insulated ground. For pool equipment, the ground is required to be insulated. Romex has a bare ground. To tell the truth, I'm not sure if it translates to hot tubs, but we have always been required to have an insulated ground on pools and hot tubs alike. 250.122 still applies in most cases, so you could use a #10 ground up to 60 A.

this is what i was asking....its obviously a manufacturers thing(having an insulated eg)....ive never seen a person lose sleep around here for running romex in conduit and even underground(even though it is a violation)

 

[Scuba_Dave]

I've always understood the insulated ground to apply to hot tubs
After installing 2 different hot tubs & having 2 different Inspectors check for the wiring in 2 different Towns

As I understand it it is the final run to the tub that needs the insulated ground. IE the run to the shut-off could be reg wire
Not sure if it was this board or another where REg wire was run to the tub & they were instructed to cut just replace it from the shut-off to the tub

 

[YerDugliness]

"get by"? what does the manufacturer of the tub say to use?

DM

oh, and LTNS!

Hey, DM, good to hear from ya' again!

As for the tub, I don't have one yet, probably 1 or 2 years down the line, so I don't have a recommendation from a manufacturer. I just wanted to get the wiring in before I put the walls back on the back porch and was hoping against hope that it might be an easy issue, but I see that Murphy's Law is always in full effect when dealing with electrical.

First of all 8 cannot supply 50 amps. You need 6 for 50 amps.

You will need gfci protection.

I would run a 4 wire setup (plus ground)

Well, that has me intrigued....please explain (keeping in mind I'm pretty much a beginner at this sort of stuff)--would the 4 wires plus ground give me more options for the hot tub (considering any outside outlet I'd want to install would need to be around the corner to be 10' from the outer wall of the hot-tub's enclosure, so would require a totally different circuit)?? Last summer I pulled two 6-3 w/g circuits to power a high-capacity electric HWOD unit (6-2 w/g would have been adequate but was not available in this backwoods part of Kansas), the 6 gauge was repesented to be safe for 60 amps and 8 gauge was reported to be safe for 50 amps......plans for this summer include wiring in one interior 50 amp circuit for an electric stove, one interior 50 amp circuit for future expansion in a different zone of the kitchen (possibly ovens), and two 50 amp circuits for additional lower capacity HWOD units to provide two separate zones of underfloor hydronic radiant heat. As you can see, I'm planning on spending quite a bit of time pulling wire and I think a 125' coil of 8-2 w/g ought to suffice for those interior circuits, it's just the outdoor circuit I am uncomfortable with.

Your best bet would probably be to run the wiring in 3/4" conduit to a temporary box, until you know what you need when you get the tub. A black, red, and white #6 THHN/THWN with a green #10 THHN/THWN ground would set you up for a maximum of 60 A at 120/240 V. Don't terminate the wiring in the panel until you know what kind of breaker you need. Just tape the ends up and push them out of the way. Don't use romex, and don't listen to the Home Depot idiot.

Well, that helps in one respect....at least I don't have to buy a whole 125' coil of 6 gauge romex. For the conduit, would that grey plastic "Karlon" ("Carlon" -- don't know about the spelling) work for installing the hot-tub's temporary outdoor box or does it need to be metal?

Keep the advice and comments coming, guys....I will be putting my you-know-what in the water and on the line with this project, sure don't want anything to take a bite at it later :no: .

Dugly

 

[Scuba_Dave]

this is what i was asking....its obviously a manufacturers thing(having an insulated eg)....ive never seen a person lose sleep around here for running romex in conduit and even underground(even though it is a violation)

Romex can & is run in PVC, in many cases for protection
So long as the fill ratio works you can do it
And as long as it is not damp wet as you stated
Not my preference, its hard enough to pull individual wires :yes:
My only run is a sleeve of about 12" to get outside
I'd never run it underground, I'm sure some people do

You need a 4 wire setup for a Tub
Just what is required

 

[NolaTigaBait]

would the 4 wires plus ground give me more options for the hot tub

its two hots a neutral and a ground, you need a neutral (4 wires)

 

[YerDugliness]

You need a 4 wire setup for a Tub
Just what is required

its two hots a neutral and a ground, you need a neutral (4 wires)

Please pardon my confusion, but.........

I think I'm starting to understand here....the ground wire has to be insulated, hence the 4 wire requirement--two hots, one common neutral, and an insulated ground makes 4 wires, and the non-insulated ground is just along for the ride b/c there is probably no romex made without it?

Geez, guys, I hate to throw this in, but the electrician who installed the system said a specific grounding circuit with copper grounding rods was not required....the local electrical cooperative supplied the wire (150' of insulated aluminum 0000 gauge--three very hefty, large, multiple wire insulated conductors in an underground approved sheath), so what runs from the meter box on the pole at the alley to the house is just three wires, two "hots" and one "neutral" (all insulated), no ground to the service panel and no separate ground circuit in the service panel (but I saved the hardware and can add it!!).

I could install a pair of copper grounding rods if this is a requirement for safety, it just wasn't a requirement for the service upgrade (there is a very healthy sized non-insulated copper wire leading downwards on the pole from the meter box into the ground, I have no idea how deeply the pole is buried as I was out of state when it was installed, but the electrician said that was adequate for grounding purposes).

Again, any advice is sincerely appreciated here, to be honest electricity is one of the few things that scares me and IMHO it's difficult to be too safe around the stuff!!

Dugly