[Joeywhat]

I'm looking to add a new circuit to my garage (it currently has a single outlet, which is a travesty), and happen to have an unused 30 amp double pole 240v circuit to use. I'd like to route that circuit to the garage and use it to run outlets and a few more lights. The issue is that the circuit seems to only have 2 hots and a ground.

I'll obviously need a neutral to make this work. Is it possible to add a neutral to this so I can run 15 amp outlets? Would the neutral need to be tied into the neutral bar in the panel or can tie into an existing neutral in the existing garage wiring? It's a split bus panel so I'm not entirely sure how safe it is to open it up and add wiring since there isn't a main disconnect to shut everything down.

Ideally I'd just tie in off the existing outlet/lights in the garage for the extra devices, but the garage is already tied into my kitchen/hallway/laundry room so I'm not sure adding more to that circuit will get me anywhere.

 

[rjniles]

The only way to add a neutral is to have or install conduit back to the panel. What wiring method do you have on the 30 amp 2 pole circuit, cable type and colors?

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[Joeywhat]

The circuit is run to a 60 Amp disconnect/breaker box for presumably an air conditioner (mounted outside) . There isn't a breaker installed, but the wires run from the panel to the box via seal tight/flex conduit. It's two black, aluminum, seemingly 4 AWG wires plus a ground run to this box. I haven't measured the wires but it's stranded and about 4 AWG size. The main panel is mounted to an exterior wall, and this box is mounted on the external side of that wall, so there isn't a lot of distance covered there. Just a roughly 16 inch section of seal tight coming out of the brick and into the box. The garage is only a few feet from there, hence my desire to use this.

ETA - I should note this is all seen from the exterior box, I haven't taken the front panel off the breaker to see what it looks like at the panel. I've never worked with a split bus panel before so I'm not sure the protocol on removing the panel without being able to flip a main disconnect.

 

[afjes2015]

Is this an attached or detached garage.


If detached and it already has one circuit running to it you can not run another circuit to it.

 

[Joeywhat]

Attached garage.

 

[rjniles]

You lost me, you have 16" of sealtite from the panel to the disconnect? And you want to reuse that, why? Run a new cable with the correct number of conductors. Where is the 2 pole 30 amp circuit you mentioned in post 1?

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[Joeywhat]

If I run from the disconnect panel I don't have to open up the main circuit breaker or make any changes at that end. I'll I'll need to do is tie a short run of conduit into the disconnect and run it into the garage. Assuming of course I can source a neutral from somewhere and don't need that to run back to the breaker neutral bar (which I feel like I do...).

 

[rjniles]

You going to have to open the panel to install a 20 amp breaker. Or if you mean you have a 30 amp 2 pole in the panel existing, you will have to open the panel to replace with a single pole 20 amp and to move a wire to the neutral bar. Once you are in the panel, run a whole new cable.

 

[Joeywhat]

I would run the 240 volt circuit to a sub panel in the garage, where I would install 15 or 20 Amp circuits on the sub panel.

 

[rjniles]

Not possible without a neutral. You could install a 120 volt sub but you have to use one of the wires as a neutral which means opening the panel to move wire to the neutral buss.

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[rjniles]

Your going to have to work in the panel, do it right and run a new cable.

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[Joeywhat]

Thanks. Was hoping there would be an easier way but oh well.

 

[chetwisner]

Is the main panel in the attached garage, or somewhere else? And where is this 30a breaker you speak of?

 

[Joeywhat]

Main panel is just inside the house. Walk through the garage, enter into the house and it's 5 feet inside. The 30 Amp breaker is in the main panel.

 

[chetwisner]

OK, so you will need to run your garage subpanel from the main, NOT from that AC disconnect outside, which probably means more work, but that's the way it's done.

You could also just run a 20a circuit from the main to the garage receptacles, which means 12/2 Romex, and a 20a single-pole breaker.

Leave the 30a 240v circuit alone, would be my advice.

 

[seharper]

I'll obviously need a neutral to make this work. Is it possible to add a neutral to this so I can run 15 amp outlets?

A cable is several wires wrapped up in a sheath from the factory.

If it's wired in cable, and there's no neutral in the cable, you must replace the whole cable.

If it's individual wires in a conduit pipe, and there's room, you can just add a neutral wire.

Would the neutral need to be tied into the neutral bar in the panel or can tie into an existing neutral in the existing garage wiring?

Oh no, no no no no! You cannot play fast and loose with neutral like that. Current flows in loops. It comes out one wire and comes back another. That's how circuits work. The neutral is the "comes back on" wire for 120V loads. That's why it's treated so seriously, given insulation, and all that. It's just as important as the hot.

You'd be putting any number of circuits returning on that same little neutral. This would overload the neutral, and neutrals don't have breakers. They're not supposed to need breakers, because each circuit's neutral is only supposed to return current from that circuit! So the breaker on the hot(s) protects the neutral. See? Now if you have promiscuous neutrals that return current for a bunch of random hots, that neutral could be on fire, and nothing would care.

It's a split bus panel so I'm not entirely sure how safe it is to open it up and add wiring since there isn't a main disconnect to shut everything down.

That's a "Rule of Six" panel. You have 6 main disconnects in the main panel area. Sometimes jackasses swap out the 6 main breakers for singles, double-stuff breakers, etc. and you can have ten or eleven main disconnects. That's not allowed, so clean any of that up.

You should make a plan to get a nice huge 40 space subpanel next to it, then move all your circuits to the sub until the 6 main disconnects are down to just one (that goes to this subpanel). At that point the danger of this panel type is eliminated.

The circuit is run to a 60 Amp disconnect/breaker box for presumably an air conditioner (mounted outside) . There isn't a breaker installed, but the wires run from the panel to the box via seal tight/flex conduit. It's two black, aluminum, seemingly 4 AWG wires plus a ground run to this box. I haven't measured the wires but it's stranded and about 4 AWG size.

Well, fair chance that wire is in conduit. Now is a good time to definitely figure out the size of the wires, whether the conduit is continuous, and what size it is. Fair chance we can just "add a neutral".

I've never worked with a split bus panel before so I'm not sure the protocol on removing the panel without being able to flip a main disconnect.

Flipping "off" the six "main breakers" should de-energize the panel, except for the busbars in the main breaker area, of course. Those can't be de-energized.

Post a photo of the panel and we could give more guidance.

 

[Joeywhat]

Given this I'm probably just going to replace the panel and upgrade to 200 Amp service (it's 100 right now). It's a federal pacific panel, so I'm not touching it in any way as I don't trust it. Figured if I could add the garage without breaking it open I could extend that work a while longer.

Didn't know this panel was a cluster until recently (thanks, home inspector). I got a pretty decent quote to do a service upgrade so I'll do that and add in the garage then.