[bcemail]

I’d like to renovate an entire room that’s off our living room. This room used to be a screened-in porch under a second story deck. House was built around 1978-1980, not sure if the deck was built then or later. At some point, one of the owners enclosed the porch and the deck into rooms of the house. As we discovered when having our roof and siding redone, they did not do this very well. Deck structure is still in there, parts weren't attached to house correctly, and even some of the screen walls were under the drywall (?!?!).

Been going back and forth about whether I should just take it down to the studs, then see what we have, or have someone inspect it first (if they can). I’m guessing I probably need a permit, but I’m worried that the inspection will find more problems than we know about. If I’m not altering the actual structure of the room, just redoing drywall and insulation, would I need a permit/inspection? If I do tear everything down, and then an inspector says it’s all wrong, how would I even go about fixing everything? And would I be required to? Is there any provision that previous work done by another owner can be allowed, since it wasn’t found before (pretty sure there were no permits pulled previously)? My nightmare scenario is I get the walls open, then the inspector says the whole back portion needs to be ripped off and rebuilt.

Thanks!

 

[andrewuser]

Ask specialized lawers in your state the laws in different states can differ, so you need a professional consultation from local lawers.

 

[mark sr]

Codes and their enforcement can vary greatly from one jurisdiction to another.
Do you know if the room was originally permitted?

 

[bcemail]

Codes and their enforcement can vary greatly from one jurisdiction to another.
Do you know if the room was originally permitted?

I don't, but judging how most things were done on this house, I would guess that it wasn't. Can you get a list of the past permits for your house? Again, wasn't sure if by calling and asking about this sort of thing I was kicking the hornet's nest and then might be required to fix things.

 

[mark sr]

I've never inquired on past permits and don't know just how that works.
Some locales say old structures/additions fall under the grandfather clause and don't treat it any differently than old permitted work while others will want that addition to pass current code or be torn down. It would be nice to talk to some local tradesmen to get their take on old work done without a permit. Extensive renovations usually require that work to meet current code. A friend of mine is finishing up on a flip where he replaced all the windows .... and the new bed rm windows had to meet egress code which meant cutting the brick to accommodate the larger windows.

 

[Bud9051]

As stated every location can have or enforce different codes.

As for what permits were pulled I have frequently just stopped into the building department and asked. Info may all be on a computer now but when I went they pulled a file and showed me. I was inquiring in regards to potential new purchase.

Another person you could talk to would be a local architect familiar with local codes and inspectors. They would know what needs to be done and what permits would be needed. Whatever he gives you for information is all to the plus.

Assuming no permits were pulled my guess is the inspector will want all previous work and new work to be brought up to current requirements. I know, the nightmare you were afraid of. But at least at this point you can point at the previous owner. if you proceed without approval everything is on your plate.

Bud

 

[ron45]

Nobody here can feel or inspect the sturdiness of the structure but you.

 

[bcemail]

Called the permit dept, and they just have permits going back 20 years. The 2 permits they have listed were pulled for work done by us. We've been there about 10 years, so either nothing was done in the previous 10 years, or it wasn't permitted.

For what I want to do, it would be pulling down drywall, insulating, maybe swapping out old electrical sockets for new ones, new floor new drywall, sounds like I wouldn't need a permit. Also asked about HVAC, and if we go with a mini-split, also no permit. That might just cover me for the structural work, since I'm not an inspector so can't inspect what I see. If that passes for a valid excuse.

She also said that if I get everything pulled down and something looks unsafe, I can have an inspector come out for a look, then determine if I need to pull any permits. Of course, at that point I'm on the books along with whatever shoddy work there is. But, since I'm not an expert in structural engineering, I won't know what to look for. Maybe at that point I could hire a contractor to do a "consultation" and at least tell me what things look like.

She also said there's not really a grandfather clause. She wasn't sure what would happen if we sold and were asked about permits, but that they wouldn't have any reason to look into things if the seller didn't ask. But since I didn't do anything requiring a permit I would feel OK saying I don't know about any unpermitted work.

It hasn't fallen down in the past 10 years, so that is a plus in the sturdiness column!

Lots of questions. I'm sure I'll end up pulling down the walls at some point. Can't stand looking at their horrible texture, not to mention the old carpet, poorly done faux beam ceiling, etc. If it looks too bad under there, maybe that's a bridge I cross then...

Thanks for all the advice!

 

[Bud9051]

Keep a photo album or electronic one of all of the before and after, specifically for your records. Assuming any work you do is better than what is there it shows you made improvements. But it is yours only.

Personally I always feel better doing things the best i can as being a contractor I can see right through the walls.

Bud

 

[udraft]

Don't forget to check if it has the required foundation. Built as a porch, must be some foundation to hold up that 2nd story porch, but when you make it part of your house it may require a continuous foundation below freeze depth.

 

[3onthetree]

Start with your assessment office. Not just the basic fair cash value you see on your tax bill, but the detailed breakdown of SF, conditioned vs non-conditioned, etc. If this is not available online, call the office (not the building dept). If this was work permitted and accounted for, it would show in your SF. I'd bet it doesn't, and having SF not shown on the books is worse than previous owners not getting permits (though they go hand in hand).

I'm not quite understanding if a 2nd story deck was closed underneath, how is this room's roof watertight?

 

[bcemail]

Don't forget to check if it has the required foundation. Built as a porch, must be some foundation to hold up that 2nd story porch, but when you make it part of your house it may require a continuous foundation below freeze depth.

Thought of that earlier today. To get into the room, there is a step down of about 4.5". It's a concrete step, so I'm pretty sure that's the edge of our slab. Then the room is on it's own slab. Not sure of the depth of that slab, but maybe I can find a place to dig down (just outside that room there is a concrete patio that is also a separate slab). Either way, I'm sure it's not an appropriate foundation. Which we would have liked to have known, but not really sure what I can do about it at this point, other than ripping the whole thing off the back of the house, which is not ideal.

 

[bcemail]

Start with your assessment office. Not just the basic fair cash value you see on your tax bill, but the detailed breakdown of SF, conditioned vs non-conditioned, etc. If this is not available online, call the office (not the building dept). If this was work permitted and accounted for, it would show in your SF. I'd bet it doesn't, and having SF not shown on the books is worse than previous owners not getting permits (though they go hand in hand).

I'm not quite understanding if a 2nd story deck was closed underneath, how is this room's roof watertight?

That's a good suggestion. I think we had a SF assessment done a few years ago, as I remember having to argue about another room that the assessor wrongly said was unfinished, and then it was a whole thing to try and make sure the assessment was correct for insurance coverage (I think).

Can you explain what you mean by not having SF on the books is worse?

For the roof, it was a second story deck with a screened in porch underneath. The whole thing (both stories) was enclosed and the gambrel roof from the house extended out over. This surely made it part of the house and should have required permits, but judging by what we've found (and what I'm sure I'm going to find once I take it down to studs) it was not made up to code.

 

[bcemail]

Keep a photo album or electronic one of all of the before and after, specifically for your records. Assuming any work you do is better than what is there it shows you made improvements. But it is yours only.

Personally I always feel better doing things the best i can as being a contractor I can see right through the walls.

Bud

Good idea. I've seen some other stories online about people taking subpar work (or stuff from say 80 years ago) and doing their best to make it better. Not always up to code, but some inspectors/jurisdictions have appreciated the improvements.

 

[Old Thomas]

We need a permit if it includes:
Anything structural
Anything affecting exiting
Extension or modification of the electrical distribution system
Extension or modification of the plumbing system
Roofing
Other stuff like moving a building, demolishing a building, stuff you are not doing.
No permit required for changing fixtures, electrical outlets/switches, most maintenance replace in kind repairs, changing finishes.
Most places are similar but it is worth checking. Just be careful how you describe it.

 

[3onthetree]

Can you explain what you mean by not having SF on the books is worse?

Permitted work gets sent to the assessment office, so when the PO captured the upstairs + downstairs and it was included in your SF, then it doesn't matter if there is an old record of a permit. Whether they were forced to build it right is another matter, but at least you'd have some argument over 'grandfathered' and not fixing stuff if it's not exposed.

But if you list the house to sell with 1600sf, and the assessment only lists 1400sf, it will become known when a buyer checks or when the assessor reviews MLS listings, surveys, or GIS data. And the tax man cometh and then brings the building dept.

 

[huesmann]

Start with your assessment office. Not just the basic fair cash value you see on your tax bill, but the detailed breakdown of SF, conditioned vs non-conditioned, etc.

Where I'm at, the taxation is based on finished vs. unfinished, not conditioned vs. non-conditioned.

 

[mark sr]

Can you explain what you mean by not having SF on the books is worse?

Some jurisdictions will charge back taxes on work that didn't show up in their records - but not all of them do.