[Dodah]

Hi,

I'm in process of negotiating w/a roofer. We're going to get architectural shingles, likely Timberline.

The roofer originally proposed using 15# felt but provided an additional price for 30# per our request. After some research, we decided we would feel better if the 30# were used instead of the 15# despite it costing more.

After telling the roofer this, he has informed us that he does not want to use the 30# because it has a tendency to wrinkle. He has proposed using a double felt system using 15# "half lapped."

Is his refusal to use 30# a red flag re his workmanship? I recall reading somewhere that some roofers who aren't that skilled avoid using 30# because they don't know how to use it w/o having wrinkles. And what about his alternative?--I have no idea what "half lapped" means.

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[Ed the Roofer]

Actually, a double coverage 15# felt would be more water-tight in theory, due to multi-layer redundancy.

Some say that 30# is more apt to wrinkle, but I totally disagree.

I have been forced by one home owner this year to decrease my cost by using 15# felt instead of my standard 30# felt and I could see the wrinkles telegraph through the shingles immediately and this is without the felt paper getting wet from any rain or dew, since we tarp up our felt paper that is not yet shingled every single night.

My preferance is one layer of 30# felt, but I also think that if a roofer is more accustomed to doing a certain task in his normal routine way, that any attempts by another party to deviate from what is the typical Norm, may wind up causing issues not yet considered.

Ed

 

[Dale Chomechko]

The wrinkling problem is from not pulling his roll tight enough.
We use 30bl felt on eaves & valleys & 15 lb over the remainder & you can correct me but I think that is a minimum requirement of Gaf/Elk.
If you want to upgrade why not try TG2 by Gaf/Elk of Deck Armour
Dale Chomechko
DC roofing Inc

 

[jaros bros.]

I like that one. "The wrinkling is from not pulling his roll tight enough." Even after laying it out nicely 30# will wrinkle as soon as it absorbs moisture. In fact, layers of 30# are used underneath stucco just for this reason. As the stucco goes on, the moisture swells the felt and creates an airspaces when it dries, allowing for a drainage plane underneath. Even the 15# will wrinkle a little when it absorbs moisture, just not nearly as much. I have no idea why the roofer would be fussing over this. Maybe it's a control issue for them. At any rate, overlapping each course 1/2 way with 15# will be just as good, just more laborious. Good luck.

 

[roofah]

It is true that any felt will wrinkle "if left exposed" but if papered correctly and shingled immediately both with lay flat. But using 2 layers of 15 would be fine and I agree with Ed on this if that is the norm for the roofer you should let him go ahead and do it. His cost would be similar either way so he's not trying to cheap out on you and it will be more labor intensive for him.

Also felt usually only overlaps 3" to 6" half lapping means they would overlap approx. 18" which is better for you. Another major function of felt is to stop drafts so in that regard his proposal would benefit you. Good luck

 

[Slyfox]

Reasons for Felt:
1. Temp- covering of the roof deck until the shingles are installed.
2. Barrier protection from heat rising out of the structure and hitting the non granulated side of the shingles.
3. Storm Damage, if your shingles are damaged or blown off during a storm the felt will not stop leaks but will limit the severity of the leaks.
4. Added fire rating.

Felts that have been time tested and proven to work under shingles:
1. #15 felt.
2. #30 felt.

Felts shown to work under shingles 'in a controlled setting' but not yet time tested.
1. All synthetics, every thing suggest they work and work well, but have not been around long enough to be time tested in the uncontrolled climate situations.

All the above mentioned felts are breathable materials, meaning they expand and contract with temps, moisture, etc.
They all are installed in the same fashion of roll them out and fasten them down.
Thus all are prone to wrinkling due to both nature and workmanship issues.

Would I be concerned that a roofer insist on using #15 felt, no.
I am curios as to why he would cause himself more work and pay the same amount of money due to his half lap theory,
and that curiosity should be enough for you to question him on his installing procedures of the rest of the roofing system and make sure everything is in writing.
I say that because to me it show's a lack of experience,
but it could be as simply a matter as ED said and he is just stuck in doing it they way he always doe's.

 

[Grumpy]

I find 15# wrinkles more than 30# although I have limited experience with double 15#. I have even seen the fiberglass felts like shingle mate wrinkle. I use 30# unless requeted otherwise. I find it to be a better product than 15# for sure. We cover what ever we tear off that day and don't leave felt exposed so no worries about mositure.

Depending on your area, you may want to also discuss ice shield for the critical areas like guter lines, valleys, and where the roof meets the wall, and all flashing areas.


I'm wondering why he bid something then refused to do it. Why bid it? I have refused to do things but never bid them. I am willing to bet he thought you wouldn't want to do it even though it cost more. I love customers like you who want better not cheaper. Kudos!

 

[roofah]

Reasons for Felt:
1. Temp- covering of the roof deck until the shingles are installed.
2. Barrier protection from heat rising out of the structure and hitting the non granulated side of the shingles.
3. Storm Damage, if your shingles are damaged or blown off during a storm the felt will not stop leaks but will limit the severity of the leaks.
4. Added fire rating.

Felts that have been time tested and proven to work under shingles:
1. #15 felt.
2. #30 felt.

Felts shown to work under shingles 'in a controlled setting' but not yet time tested.
1. All synthetics, every thing suggest they work and work well, but have not been around long enough to be time tested in the uncontrolled climate situations.

All the above mentioned felts are breathable materials, meaning they expand and contract with temps, moisture, etc.
They all are installed in the same fashion of roll them out and fasten them down.
Thus all are prone to wrinkling due to both nature and workmanship issues.

Would I be concerned that a roofer insist on using #15 felt, no.
I am curios as to why he would cause himself more work and pay the same amount of money due to his half lap theory,
and that curiosity should be enough for you to question him on his installing procedures of the rest of the roofing system and make sure everything is in writing.
I say that because to me it show's a lack of experience,
but it could be as simply a matter as ED said and he is just stuck in doing it they way he always doe's.

He may have bought a few pallets of 15 lb. to save 1-2 dollars a roll and trying to push his inventory.

 

[Slyfox]

He may have bought a few pallets of 15 lb. to save 1-2 dollars a roll and trying to push his inventory.

Yeah, that's surely another possibility.

 

[Dale Chomechko]

15 lb does wrinkle more than 30lb & if we don't roof it that day, we tarp it just in case.
I never just rely on felt against wind & rain.

We do a lot of cedar work & it is double felted before the shakes are tucked under & I have left them overnight in a rain (some years ago)& yes they are very wrinkled. This is one of the reasons we don't do that any more.
But wrinkling on a dry day, a few more nails or tacks & pull it a little tighter.
Dale Chomechko
DC Roofing Inc

 

[Ed the Roofer]

Shake Liner 18" 30# would matter much less if it wrinkled or not, due to the cedar product being installed over the top, unlike an asphalt/fiberglass shingle, which could telegraph the lumps right through the new material and not allow them to lay properly right from the get-go, without applying downward pressure on the shingle while installing it.

Ed

 

[Dale Chomechko]

You are right Ed but 15lb still wrinkles easier when wet.
Just wondering why this roofer is letting it get wet.
It does sound like an odd excuse.
We do double layer on low slope roofs but still use 30lb starter felt. (Prefer Ice & water shield)

 

[Dodah]

Thanks for all the insightful replies.