[alexlacelle]

Approximately 1 week ago I discovered some fairly serious leaks in my attic. The leaks occurred as a result of ice damming. Water penetrated the roof about 4 feet up from the edge. The ice had built up to this point over the winter. All the affected ceilings and insulation have been dropped and the plywood is drying at the moment.

I climbed onto the roof the same day I noticed the leaks and removed all the snow and ice, mitigating the problem. For a few days following this, water was still dripping into the home particularly through old nail holes (the roof was re-done last year, it appears the contractor did not change the plywood or add to it). Since the ice damming caused water to back up under the shingles, is it possible that this leaking a few days after the roof was clear was simply the water that was already under the shingles leaking through?

Regarding the home; I purchased it this last October. It's a semi detached bungalow. I was told the roof had been done earlier that year. Upon inspecting the inside of the home and the attic, it was obvious that the previous roof had leaked, prompting the replacement. I could see spots in the drywall that had previously gotten wet but were dry not, as well as dark discoloration on the plywood in the attic. I didn't think this was an issue since the roof was replaced.

While shoveling the roof, I spoke to my neighbor who advised me that the contractor who had done the roof the year prior was asked to return after the work was completed because of a leak. Upon examining the roof, I noticed multiple tar patches on the new roof, particularly in one section, where there are tar patches on every seam going down the roof in line. I assume this was the location of the leak that was repaired. I took pictures showing the tarred patches, as well as various sections of the roof. I'm not very experienced in roofs and was hoping someone could look at the pictures and at least tell me if it appears that the shingles were installed correctly or not. I should mention that none of the shingles appear to be lifting or curling from what I can tell.

I have a roofing contractor coming by tomorrow to give me an opinion on the roof, insulation, and venting, but I would like to know a little bit more about the condition of the roof prior to him attending.

Many thanks!

 

[goobertime]

time for a new roof installed correctly..

 

[alexlacelle]

time for a new roof installed correctly..

Care to elaborate? Do you see something wrong in the pictures?

Thanks!

 

[Bud9051]

I'll make some quick comments.
1. The ice dams are your major problem and apparently have been before your purchased.
2. A new roof does not solve the ice dam issue.
3. Insulation, air sealing, and ventilation are the issues with ice dams.
4. The shingle installation stretched the exposure, which makes it a poor installation, but painting tar on the surface expecting to solve a leak makes it a bad installation.
5. Although an Ice and Water Shield should not be expected to solve the ice damming and leaking, it should have been used.
6. Do you have the name of the original roof contractor, he may be responsible being less than a year.

Bud

Just saw your question:
Each row of shingles should have come down to the top of the simulated missing shingle. He stayed 1/2" high. And, hard to judge as I'm not a roofer, but it looks like he only staggered the ends of the shingles every other row. usually it is 3 rows, but again I'm not a pro.

 

[alexlacelle]

I'll make some quick comments.
1. The ice dams are your major problem and apparently have been before your purchased.
2. A new roof does not solve the ice dam issue.
3. Insulation, air sealing, and ventilation are the issues with ice dams.
4. The shingle installation stretched the exposure, which makes it a poor installation, but painting tar on the surface expecting to solve a leak makes it a bad installation.
5. Although an Ice and Water Shield should not be expected to solve the ice damming and leaking, it should have been used.
6. Do you have the name of the original roof contractor, he may be responsible being less than a year.

Bud

Just saw your question:
Each row of shingles should have come down to the top of the simulated missing shingle. He stayed 1/2" high. And, hard to judge as I'm not a roofer, but it looks like he only staggered the ends of the shingles every other row. usually it is 3 rows, but again I'm not a pro.

Thanks for the information. According to the insurance adjuster and the repair company we've apparently had a bad year for ice damming in town due to the weather. However that being said I'm having the roofer come over to hopefully solve the ice damming issue if there is in fact a problem. I'm stumped since the insulation in the attic was good (blown in, decent thickness), I have 2 venmar vents, a gable vent, and soffit with ridge vents down the whole side of the house, so ventilation shouldn't be an issue either Even during a light snowfall the snow didn't melt on the roof. My eaves might have been an issue but they will be replaced this year.

I don't have the information on the contractor who did the roof, howver after I get a professional's opinion on the roof I will be looking into this for sure.

 

[Bud9051]

Living in "ice dam" country and working in the energy efficiency business I have a good background and lots of experience with ice dams. It is possible for solar energy to penetrate the snow layer and melt the snow next to the shingles which then flows down to where it tries to drip out but freezes. If that is the case and I'm not sure all has been done on the inside, then the responsibility for the ice dams falls back onto you. When the snow accumulated, you need to remove it before the ice builds up.

If the heat from the house, either conducting through the insulation or being carried into the attic through air leaks, is the cause, and I suspect it is contributing, then you need to review the effectiveness of that insulation and ventilation.

Example, a low slope roof will provide very little ventilation pressure even if it has the recommended vent area. Need some pictures to know if this is an issue.

You said "decent thickness" but in cold country that needs to be 16" or more and near the eaves that is often not possible.

The pros here can help with this to get you up to as best possible. I'm reluctant to accept a roofers suggestions for solving ice dams. Seen too many tar jobs.

Bud

 

[goobertime]

Care to elaborate? Do you see something wrong in the pictures?

Thanks!

looks like they lined up the seems on the shingles and the water is just running between the shingles, hence all the tar( brown stuff) they put on the seems to try and stop it, is there any backing material under the shingles? and did they use any ice stop material( self stick membrane) the first 4 to 6ft up from the edge of the roof?

 

[alexlacelle]

Living in "ice dam" country and working in the energy efficiency business I have a good background and lots of experience with ice dams. It is possible for solar energy to penetrate the snow layer and melt the snow next to the shingles which then flows down to where it tries to drip out but freezes. If that is the case and I'm not sure all has been done on the inside, then the responsibility for the ice dams falls back onto you. When the snow accumulated, you need to remove it before the ice builds up.

If the heat from the house, either conducting through the insulation or being carried into the attic through air leaks, is the cause, and I suspect it is contributing, then you need to review the effectiveness of that insulation and ventilation.

Example, a low slope roof will provide very little ventilation pressure even if it has the recommended vent area. Need some pictures to know if this is an issue.

You said "decent thickness" but in cold country that needs to be 16" or more and near the eaves that is often not possible.

The pros here can help with this to get you up to as best possible. I'm reluctant to accept a roofers suggestions for solving ice dams. Seen too many tar jobs.

Bud

This was my first year with the house, so I will be watching it closely in the following years. I do have a low slope roof. I don't know much about them but my roof was referred to as a 12-2 if that helps? It's a very low attic through, I need to crawl on all fours to get through it and that is in the high section. The restoration company is going to replace and lengthen the ridge vents and blow in R-50 in the whole house, with as much as possible on the lower side up to the ridge vents. I'm hoping this will also help in following years.

We have a roofing and attic insulation company in town so I was going to have them over since they can address both my issues.

 

[alexlacelle]

looks like they lined up the seems on the shingles and the water is just running between the shingles, hence all the tar( brown stuff) they put on the seems to try and stop it, is there any backing material under the shingles? and did they use any ice stop material( self stick membrane) the first 4 to 6ft up from the edge of the roof?

This is what I was concerned about. Again I don't know much about roofs but something about this install just looked wrong to me. I'm not sure whether or not there is backing material or ice shield...

 

[joecaption]

FIY if the roof sheating was in good shape there was no need to fill the old holes, cover or replace the old sheathing.
The sheathing does not prevent leaks, the shingles do that job.
It is possible but not the suggested way to do it but shingles could even be installed with no felt under them and it should not leak.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in those pictures am I seeing a white line right where the shingles over lap? (My eye sights not that great)
If so that's where the nails should have been, not the edge of the shingles.
That style shingle is made with two layers of material, that line is where the two layers overlap, the way it's nailed now only one thin layer is attached to the roof and is far more likely to be subject to blowing off in high winds and the layers seperating and sliding down the roof.
There's also something that just does not look right about what looks like lots of seams as if they where trying to use up the short cut offs instead of whole shingles. (I could be wrong, I'm not there to look at it)
Want to learn how they should have been installed, any shingle manufacture has all the details on there web sites.
At to your venting you suggest you have are you 100% sure that the blown in insulation is not blocking the soffit vents in the attic?
Was baffles installed.
Can you see daylight from inside the attic where the soffit vents should be?
Far to often I've seen siding guys to lazy to remove the plywood of at least cut out for vents and install vented vinyl or aluminum right over it making it look like it's vented from the underside.
All that tar on a 1 year old roof would have been a huge red flag to me!

 

[goobertime]

This is what I was concerned about. Again I don't know much about roofs but something about this install just looked wrong to me. I'm not sure whether or not there is backing material or ice shield...

try and get a qualified roofer to take a look, but in the long run you may have to just rip the whole roof( shingles) off and have it done over, even though its a newer roof, cost and aggravation trying to patch it wont work..

 

[goobertime]

many times a hybird roof, of shingles up top and metal on the bottom is a better for for ice damming..try and stay away from any kind of melt system that can fail at the worst time..

 

[alexlacelle]

FIY if the roof sheating was in good shape there was no need to fill the old holes, cover or replace the old sheathing.
The sheathing does not prevent leaks, the shingles do that job.
It is possible but not the suggested way to do it but shingles could even be installed with no felt under them and it should not leak.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in those pictures am I seeing a white line right where the shingles over lap? (My eye sights not that great)
If so that's where the nails should have been, not the edge of the shingles.
That style shingle is made with two layers of material, that line is where the two layers overlap, the way it's nailed now only one thin layer is attached to the roof and is far more likely to be subject to blowing off in high winds and the layers seperating and sliding down the roof.
There's also something that just does not look right about what looks like lots of seams as if they where trying to use up the short cut offs instead of whole shingles. (I could be wrong, I'm not there to look at it)
Want to learn how they should have been installed, any shingle manufacture has all the details on there web sites.
At to your venting you suggest you have are you 100% sure that the blown in insulation is not blocking the soffit vents in the attic?
Was baffles installed.
Can you see daylight from inside the attic where the soffit vents should be?
Far to often I've seen siding guys to lazy to remove the plywood of at least cut out for vents and install vented vinyl or aluminum right over it making it look like it's vented from the underside.
All that tar on a 1 year old roof would have been a huge red flag to me!

Hi Joe,

Yes you are seeing a white line. You're right that they lined up the following row of shingles based on that line.

I also agree that something just looks off about all the seams. I can't tell what it is but it definitely doesn't look right.

There are baffles in the attic, and they were not blocked by the blown insulation. I will double check to ensure that the soffit venting is in fact open and not closed in by plywood.

Thanks for the info!

 

[alexlacelle]

try and get a qualified roofer to take a look, but in the long run you may have to just rip the whole roof( shingles) off and have it done over, even though its a newer roof, cost and aggravation trying to patch it wont work..

I have someone coming by tomorrow to have a look. Replacing it would be too bad as since it's a semi-dettached it's not a very big roof. I will however be looking into who did it last year and see where I can get. I'm not particularly interested in having them re-do the roof since obviously they don't know what they're doing, but if there's that many problems with their installation they should be doing something about it!

 

[goobertime]

I have someone coming by tomorrow to have a look. Replacing it would be too bad as since it's a semi-dettached it's not a very big roof. I will however be looking into who did it last year and see where I can get. I'm not particularly interested in having them re-do the roof since obviously they don't know what they're doing, but if there's that many problems with their installation they should be doing something about it!

As a new home owner the warranty may not have transferred over to you, the only person that can go after them is the old homeowner, but you may be able to get something from the last homeowner, but it all depends what your sale contact states...

 

[SeniorSitizen]

Once again the roofer being blamed when the roof job had nothing to do with the damage unless rain actually caused the damage.

As we can see insulation and venting may lower utility bills but do not prevent damage from ice dams.

Drainage prevents damage caused by ice dams. If there had been an escape route for the water that was under the ice there would have been no damage, much less backed up 4 ft.

Because of heat loss the frozen precipitation under the snow will always melt before that which is exposed on top. And if the outdoor ambient is above freezing that conditioned heat loss coupled with above freezing air temperatures moving through the venting increases the chances of the frozen precip. next to the sheathing melting first.

Drainage is the answer to eliminate damage from ice dams.

 

[craig11152]

As others have pointed out the exposure is too much. That is certainly an issue that can contribute to leaks.
The staggers going up the roof were what I call a "vertical rack" often used on 3 tab shingles. In any case it is not a correct installation. The vertical rack would probably void any manufacturer warranty but would NOT be a direct cause of leaks.

If your roof is in fact a 2/12 then it is the bare bones minimum for shingles. Depending on the manufacturer they may have required ice and water shield on the entire deck for a 2/12.
If your in serious snow country I would consider a flat roofing material on a 2/12.

 

[joecaption]

There's special instrutions that needed to be followed to cover a low slope roof.
Often it's required to use doubled up 30 LB. paper or storm and ice shield.
The exposure line should have been less not more as your was done.
Here's the install directions for GAF shingles, most other companys follow the same guide lines.
http://www.gaf.com/Residential_Roof...ation_Instructions_English_Spanish_French.pdf

 

[alexlacelle]

Once again the roofer being blamed when the roof job had nothing to do with the damage unless rain actually caused the damage.

As we can see insulation and venting may lower utility bills but do not prevent damage from ice dams.

Drainage prevents damage caused by ice dams. If there had been an escape route for the water that was under the ice there would have been no damage, much less backed up 4 ft.

Because of heat loss the frozen precipitation under the snow will always melt before that which is exposed on top. And if the outdoor ambient is above freezing that conditioned heat loss coupled with above freezing air temperatures moving through the venting increases the chances of the frozen precip. next to the sheathing melting first.

Drainage is the answer to eliminate damage from ice dams.

My eaves definitely were a problem. They will be fixed soon. That being said I'm guessing my low pitch isn't helping the drainage either.

I'm not blaming the roofer for this particular problem, however while dealing with this issue I learned that the shingles were installed improperly. Whether that contributed to this issue is irrelevant.

 

[alexlacelle]

As others have pointed out the exposure is too much. That is certainly an issue that can contribute to leaks.
The staggers going up the roof were what I call a "vertical rack" often used on 3 tab shingles. In any case it is not a correct installation. The vertical rack would probably void any manufacturer warranty but would NOT be a direct cause of leaks.

If your roof is in fact a 2/12 then it is the bare bones minimum for shingles. Depending on the manufacturer they may have required ice and water shield on the entire deck for a 2/12.
If your in serious snow country I would consider a flat roofing material on a 2/12.

I suspect no extra steps were done to compensate for the 2/12 roof. Another reason to have the shingles replace. I will look into the flat roofing material.