[r0ckstarr]

Disclaimer: The extent of my HVAC knowledge goes as far as changing the mercury thermostat for a programmable model. I have done that twice. Other than that, I know not much else.

I called a local HVAC company to have the yearly inspection done, and to diagnose an issue with my condenser.

I have noticed that my condenser would cycle off, then right back on soon after starting up. It would only do it once each time then appear to run fine afterwards. I suspected that it was low on refrigerant, but honestly had no clue.

The guy shows up, tells me what he's here for, and I ask if he minds if I watch so I can better familiarize myself with everything. He was fine with me watching, and explained everything as he went along.

He confirmed that the condenser was low on refrigerant and we found the leak in the evaporator coil. The evap coil was replaced less than 10yrs ago (long before I lived here), but was improperly installed. The evap coil was installed at an angle where it would hold water and was rusting out. I saw the water and the rust. I saw him confirm the leak with a detector.

He then called a number on speakerphone to verify the warranty on the evap coil. The previous owners never registered the evap coil, and because of that, it only had a 5yr warranty. It's 5yrs too late for that now. I need to buy a new evap coil. He said that he could have the new one in a day or two.

My outside condenser is from 1996. This he confirmed both by explaining the serial number to me, as well as calling it in on speaker phone. He pointed a code violation to me. The breaker panel is more than 15ft from the condenser and is around the corner from it. There is no shut off at the condenser. He also noted that the sight glass was also installed on the wrong side of the filter drier and was not accurate.

He told me that if I put a new evap coil in, they will use R22 since that is what my system already has in it. If I just go with the evap coil and my condenser breaks in the future, then it will cost more to replace the condenser than if I were to replace it now, because you cannot get a condenser for R22 anymore, and the the evap coil would have to be changed again because you cannot mix R22 with the new stuff. He said they can blow out the line and reuse that. Does that sound right?

Considering the age and appearance of my condenser, I had already considered looking into having it replaced for peace of mind before I called this company.

So, new Evap Coil and condensor.

My current condenser is a 3ton. When I was buying the house, the inspector told me that the AC was undersized for this houses size. 1800sq ft. I have one single 20x20 air filter that I think flows 800CFM. Without ever mentioning this to the HVAC guy, he told me the same thing.

He gave me a list of prices and specs of new condensers. He said that a 4ton would do much better than what I have now. I chose to go with the American Standard 4A7A40 Series.

From there, we moved on to the furnace. My blower is rated for 5 amps and is drawing 7.5. He swapped out the capacitor and showed me that with a new capacitor it was now drawing 6.3 amps. Still more than it was rated for. He said that my capacitor was at half life, but the blower motor would need replacing in the near future.

He pointed out that my furnace did not meet code. It was sitting on wooden blocks. The spacing where the flue pipe goes through the roof only had a half inch of room between the flue pipe and wood roof sheathing.

We tested the manifold? I cannot remember the name. It's the part of the gas furnace where you see all of the flames. He showed me that there was one spot that was making a constant flickering small orange flame, where all of the rest were blue. He said that it could have a tiny pinhole in it allowing oxygen in. Otherwise, everything else looked ok. The furnace and blower are from 1983, original to the house.

I asked what it would cost to replace the blower if it were to go out, and I asked the cost to replace the entire furnace which included a new blower. Considering the age of my HVAC system, I am more interested in reliability than a cheap fix and not knowing the next time it may break.

So. I will be getting a new Evap coil, condenser, and furnace. We measured the attic opening and both the new and old units will fit through there.

They will fix everything that does not meet code, which included putting a shutoff switch at the new condenser, removing some of the sheathing to clear the flue pipe, and putting the new furnace on metal stands.

They will install a media filter in the attic, as well as add another 20x20 air filter in the wall above the existing one.

They will also throw in a free Honeywell Pro 6000, even though my current programmable Tstat works fine.

There will be a 10yr warranty on the Condenser, Compressor, Evaporator, and related parts. A 20yr warranty on the Heat Exchanger. A 2yr warranty on labor.

They will be back Monday to do all of the work, and said that it will all be completed the same day. Total cost is $7,805.00.

Is there anything else I am missing, or should do in preparation? Does everything I posted sound about right?

 

[yuri]

Sounds good to me and the price is good. My company would be at least $3500-4000 for furnace and add the AC another $3500-4000. Higher if you go up to the Buick class or higher.

Nice to see there are some knowledgeable techs out there. The parts changers give us a bad name/reputation.

If you are in a attic you should have a overflow pan and I would have a water bug alarm switch installed to a alarm. If water gets in the pan you get a alarm. Probably some US techs here who know more about attic units than myself. I have heard they are available.

If you have problems with the ground heaving outside then get them to put it on crushed gravel and use sidewalk blocks or a pad that Am Std has for it.

Google: water bug sensor

 

[r0ckstarr]

Sounds good to me and the price is good. My company would be at least $3500-4000 for furnace and add the AC. Higher if you go up to the Buick class or higher.

Nice to see there are some knowledgeable techs out there. The parts changers give us a bad name/reputation.

If you are in a attic you should have a overflow pan and I would have a water bug alarm switch installed to a alarm. If water gets in you get a alarm. Probably some US techs here who know more about attic units than myself. I have heard they are available.

Thanks. The guy was very knowledgeable and friendly. I thought there was a lot more to the entire HVAC system. He made it seem pretty simple as far as what each component is and does.

It's in the attic. It currently has the overflow pan and a shutoff switch installed on the drain line. The shutoff switch that I have just shuts the system off when the water level reaches the sensor. Once a year, I go up there and pour bleach through the drain line to keep the algae from forming.

If you have problems with the ground heaving outside then get them to put it on crushed gravel and use sidewalk blocks or a pad that Am Std has for it.

The current condenser is sitting on cinder blocks, which have sunk about 4 inches into the soil. I have some 4" thick 16x16 foundation blocks and asked him if they would make an acceptable foundation for the new unit to sit on. He said that they would work a whole lot better than cinder blocks.

Google: water bug sensor

Thanks!

 

[rjniles]

Most HVAC companies in my area install a new plastic/composite mounting pad with new compressor installs. Non corrosive to metals.

 

[yuri]

Yeah, I love those pads. Weigh 5 lbs. Had lots of good times back in the 80's lugging 20x25" sidewalk pads to the back of houses to set units on. :vs_mad:Back then they used 2 of them and Lennox and Keeprite had flat tops instead of going straight vertical like now.

 

[r0ckstarr]

Most HVAC companies in my area install a new plastic/composite mounting pad with new compressor installs. Non corrosive to metals.

He mentioned a plastic pad. That's when I brought up the concrete foundation blocks. Any reason why they couldn't or shouldn't put the pad on the blocks?

I have 4 of these. Each one is about 65lbs.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/4-in-x-16-in-x-16-in-Concrete-Block-401523102/202580161

 

[yuri]

Where I am we use 2" crushed gravel and put it under that plastic pad that matches the footprint of the unit. Lennox makes them in oval shaped that match their units. There are generic ones to.

I would rather have a solid 1 piece pad than 2-4 sidewalk blocks at they can shift independently. The crushed gravel allows water to drain from under it and if the ground settles it is easy to jack it up and shove more gravel in to level it.

Some areas the ground never moves but where I am it swells as it is on clay and changes with the dry/wet years.

I would use their pad and buy some gravel (HDepot or a landscape supplier) and have it ready for them. Use a plastic fencing skirt or landscape ties if the gravel washes away.

I would get (4) 5 gallon pails of it. 6-7 as your gallon is smaller.

 

[r0ckstarr]

Where I am we use 2" crushed gravel and put it under that plastic pad that matches the footprint of the unit. Lennox makes them in oval shaped that match their units. There are generic ones to.

I would rather have a solid 1 piece pad than 2-4 sidewalk blocks at they can shift independently. The crushed gravel allows water to drain from under it and if the ground settles it is easy to jack it up and shove more gravel in to level it.

Some areas the ground never moves but where I am it swells as it is on clay and changes with the dry/wet years.

I would use their pad and buy some gravel (HDepot or a landscape supplier) and have it ready for them. Use a plastic fencing skirt or landscape ties if the gravel washes away.

I would get (4) 5 gallon pails of it. 6-7 as your gallon is smaller.

Thanks. There's only one issue. My current condenser is sitting where the new one would go. :laughing:

 

[yuri]

I would get them to remove it and you hand them the gravel. Takes 2 minutes to smooth it and level it with a 2x4 and get a level. I am sure they won't mind. Makes a huge difference later with vibration and will extend the life of the unit.

They have to recover the freon and remove the condensor and you can do the pad while they work in the attic.

 

[r0ckstarr]

I would get them to remove it and you hand them the gravel. Takes 2 minutes to smooth it and level it with a 2x4 and get a level. I am sure they won't mind. Makes a huge difference later with vibration and will extend the life of the unit.

They have to recover the freon and remove the condensor and you can do the pad while they work in the attic.

Will do. Thank you again.

 

[yuri]

Yur Welcome:smile:

 

[r0ckstarr]

They did it all yesterday. Took them about 10hrs from start to finish. Before they got here, I put a case of water in the garage fridge. When they got here, I showed it to them and told them to take as much as they need. I asked if I could watch, and they were ok with it.

By 1PM, I noticed that they hadn't stopped for a lunch break, so I bought them pizza delivery. Also, after confirming with them that I wouldn't be using any electrical outlets that they were using, I set up a fan in the attic to keep the air moving since it was getting pretty hot in there.

I'm used to doing everything myself. An HVAC replacement clearly falls outside of what a typical DIY'er can do. So, on big jobs like this, where someone else is doing the work and all I can do is stand around and watch, I still feel like I have to do something, so I try to help by accommodating the workers. I do my best to stay out of their way, and all my pics were taken when they were doing something else.

The old setup. (Ignore the yellow arrow in the pic. This pic was from a question I had in the past.) The old system had a Honeywell furnace, a Carrier evap coil, and an IPC condenser. The new system is all matching with American Standard.

During tear-out:

Part of my old furnace. There was a ton of rust flakes sitting in the channels that run top to bottom.

The new condenser in place. Making a gravel pad wasn't necessary. Under the old cinderblocks, we found a concrete pad that had sunk a bit in the dirt. The HVAC guy suggested putting the cinder blocks back with their pad on top and leveling it all on the old pad. We used some of the cinder blocks that were left over from tearing my shed down.

They ran a whole new flue-pipe and roof vent. They said that my old system was a 50/50 system that used a 6in flue pipe. The new one was 20/80 and used a 4in pipe. I asked what that meant, and he said with the old system, 50% of the heat that it made was pushed out through the flue pipe, and with the new system, only 20% of the heat is wasted through the flue. Does that sound right? I'm not questioning what the guy told me, just questioning if I remember it correctly.

The old 6in flue.

During install:

 

[r0ckstarr]

See the support board for the roof? The old system cleared that. The new system didn't, so they made a box to get around it.

Finished and running:

The sensor they used:

The condenser finished and running. They added a shut-off switch and the sight glass is now in the correct spot.

Inside the house (no pics), they put in the new thermostat and added another 20x20 air filter to allow the system to get more air.

The first thing I noticed inside the house was how quiet it runs compared to the old unit. I now understand what they meant when they said the air intake was too small. The old system was loud, and you could hear the air sucking through the air filter. With two 20x20 air intakes, it's almost silent. The amount of air coming out of the vents is amazing. With the old system, you had to hold your hand up to the registers to feel the air coming out. With the new system, you can lay on the floor and feel it. The house also cools down much quicker. Outside temp was 85F. Inside temp was 80F when they first turned it on. As a test, I put it on 67F and it didn't take long for it to get to that temperature and shut off. With the old system, setting it to 67F wasn't even something I would consider because I knew it would run non-stop and never get to that temp. I'm comfortable with it at 74F, and am happy with the entire process from start to finish. Wish I would have done this sooner.

Now, I am waiting on a call from the HVAC company. They're going to schedule the original technician (from my first post to this thread), to come back out and inspect the installers work and say that it's ok for a city inspector to look at. From there, we have to schedule a city inspector to come inspect it. My first time dealing with a city inspector, so what should I expect?

 

[yuri]

Good pics and story.

Sounds like you were raised well and must of had good influences in your life.:wink2:

My Grand Mothers were very pious and like Saints to me. They were very generous and would give anyone the shirt off their back. When the guys were pouring the cement for my driveway on a hot day I went out there with a bowl full of ice cold Cokes and some chocolate bars in case they were hungry. I have had customers feed me meals etc so it is nice to hear there are generous kind people out there.:smile:

Your new furnace is a mid efficiency / 80% combustion efficient unit and your old one was 50%. 30% more heat transfers thru the heat exchanger into your house because of the design of it and less goes out the chimney.

You are very fortunate to find a good thorough Pro company and got a very good well designed system. Good 4 U.:biggrin2:

 

[r0ckstarr]

Good pics and story.

Sounds like you were raised well and must of had good influences in your life.:wink2:

Thanks.

Quite the opposite really. I don't want to become what I came from. I also work a job in a hot location where lunch breaks don't happen every day, so I understand how important food is to help keep your energy going when you cannot stop.

Your Grand Mothers sound like good people.

When the guys did my driveway, I gave them a cooler full of ice and bottled water.

Your new furnace is a mid efficiency / 80% combustion efficient unit and you old one was 50%. 30% more heat transfers thru the heat exchanger into your house because of the design of it and less goes out the chimney.

You are very fortunate to find a good thorough Pro company and got a very good well designed system. Goof 4 U.:biggrin2:

Thanks for explaining it.

I searched around online to find an HVAC company. I read tons of reviews on multiple sites, and these guys had the most reviews with almost no complaints. Alot of the other HVAC companies around here had poor reviews, which left me skeptical of what to expect. These guys were great. I don't think I could have found a better company around here. I'm glad that I have a whole new system to start with and not have to worry about the old one anymore.

 

[yuri]

Am Std/Trane still use a spine fin (Xmas tree garland looking) outdoor coil from what I know and see. Others use a straight finned coil. Not a common brand where I am as they cost more for us to buy.

Make sure you clean it once or twice a year and keep a close eye on it. They plug with lint and fluff from cottonwood trees etc a lot quicker than the finned coil and are harder to clean. Supposed to have more surface area/better heat transfer but that is a myth. The other brands just add more fins. However it works well as long as it is kept clean. No fun to clean.

 

[r0ckstarr]

Am Std/Trane still use a spine fin (Xmas tree garland looking) outdoor coil from what I know and see. Others use a straight finned coil. Not a common brand where I am as they cost more for us to buy.

Make sure you clean it once or twice a year and keep a close eye on it. They plug with lint and fluff from cottonwood trees etc a lot quicker than the finned coil and are harder to clean. Supposed to have more surface area/better heat transfer but that is a myth. The other brands just add more fins. However it works well as long as it is kept clean. No fun to clean.

I noticed the design of the fins. They are just as you described, and I agree that it doesn't look fun to clean. Luckily, the only trees around are oak trees. With the old one, I only really ever found oak leaves between the cover and the fins.

The biggest issue I have with keeping it clean is in the fall. All of the leaves seem to fall down into the condenser. Once the trees start dropping leaves, I go out once every two weeks and clean the leaves out of the inside. When I first moved in, I cleaned out about 8 inches of leaves from the old one. You could tell nobody ever kept up with it because the leaves at the bottom were decomposing and earthworms were crawling around in the dirt.

I'll keep a close eye on this one throughout the year and see how it does. Thanks again.

 

[yuri]

Yeah I would get a leaf blower or shop vac that you can blow with and periodically blow it out and vacuum it. Then flush it with a garden hose and sprayer 2-3X during the Summer. Very important in Texas as it runs a lot longer and with higher temps and pressures than most of North America. It is capacity designed for a max temp of 100-110F I believe as that is average and you can go above average. Then it suffers and users more elec but won't get harmed, just loses capacity. A cleaner outdoor coil gives it more capacity/runs easier and cooler just like a clean radiator coil in your car.

 

[r0ckstarr]

Yeah I would get a leaf blower or shop vac that you can blow with and periodically blow it out and vacuum it. Then flush it with a garden hose and sprayer 2-3X during the Summer. Very important in Texas as it runs a lot longer and with higher temps and pressures than most of North America. It is capacity designed for a max temp of 100-110F I believe as that is average and you can go above average. Then it suffers and users more elec but won't get harmed, just loses capacity.

I never thought of flushing it out with a sprayer. Thank you for the tip and the info. I bet the old one could have benefited from the garden hose. It sits in a shaded area, so hopefully it won't get as hot.

 

[yuri]

Yeah it amazes me that some things as simple as keeping the outdoor coil clean most people don't do or know about. Pretty easy when you do it for a living. I have to try not to talk down to my Apprentices or DIYers as hey they don't know what I do. Comes from being a Apprentice way back and being treated like that by old school Journeymen. Jeez you dumbazz, is that not the first thing they taught you in school.:vs_mad::biggrin2: