[Lovegasoline]

A bedroom has a 7’ crack in a ceiling joist and I'm wondering if anyone here has experience in contractor, architecture, and/or engineering and can provide some input regarding whether or not it represents a structural/safety concern, and if yes, what are the typical options for repair?

I have two questions both related to the joist:
1.) If it is necessary, how to repair the crack?
2.) A steam radiator's heat pipe which passes through a pre-existing hole in the joist needs to be slightly enlarged ... that is to say extending the hole by approx. 1"-2" in height so as to permit repositioning of the pipe. The pipe is presently back-pitched so instead of correctly draining the condesate, the water is pooling in the pipe causing noise-hammering ... raising the pipe slightly will allow it to be correctly angled downwards towards the main heat riser pipe and properly drain. The joist's crack runs right across the hole that's presently there. Even if the answer to question #1 above is that the joist doesn't need to be repaired, there's still the consequence of further weakening the joist by adding another hole.

I've posted several pics as an aid to understand the nature of the joist's crack/split/check and also to show the ceiling framing structure.

Insofar as this sort of joist building structure has been in use for centuries, I assume that a joist developing a crack/split/check is a common occurrence and there's common methods of dealing with it. I'm looking for the least invasive means of repair.

Dimensions:
-Ceiling joist dimensions: 7.25” X 2.5” x 11’.
-One end is socketed into a weight bearing masonry wall, the other end is supported by a metal bracket in a wooden cross member. Only the joist with the check and one next to it are 11' and supported by a bracket, all the other joists in the room are 16' long and their other ends go to a weight bearing steel I-beam.
-Joists are spaced 14” on center.
-This joist and approximately 8 others adjacent to it were all completely replaced in 2011 during structural renovation work. That work was done designed by a certified architect and engineer.


Comment: There’s a 2” hole drilled in the center of the joist for radiator steam pipe to pass through. The worrisome crack passes directly through the hole.

Crack: There is a crack (or ‘check’) that runs approx. 7’ in length at the center of the joist. The crack is only on one side of the joist and doesn’t penetrate completely through the thickness of the joist. The opposing side of the joist is intact, however it's cupped slightly due to the crack. Is this a structural problem or is it not a concern? (all the other joists appear to be fine without cracks).

Below are several pics all looking up at the ceiling structure:

Pre-history: The two pics on top show the structure during the renovation prior to the reinstallation of the plumbing pipes. In these photos one can see the two joists on the left (approx. 11' long) are supported by metal brackets. The second joist from the left is the one that has developed a crack.

The bottom two pics show the plumbing pipes installed.
In the pic on the bottom left one can see the vertical pipe nipple exiting the floor and connected to an elbow, then a length of pipe goes perpendicular through through the second-to-the-left joist. It is this joist that developed a crack/split.

 

[Lovegasoline]

More pics...

The first pic is from a similar vantage point of the last two pics in the previous post ... but whereas the previous pics were during renovation 5 years ago, this pic represents the current state of the ceiling. Again, the second from the left joist has developed the crack.

The second pic is an establishing shot showing a hole cut in the ceiling which was done to trouble shoot a leak and also the pipe hammering noise. It was during that operation that the crack in the joist was first discovered.

The third and fourth pics zoom in on the second pic above to show the crack.

The bottom two pics show the crack as it continues along the joist to the left of the pipe and hole.

 

[Lovegasoline]

Finally if it's of any help, here's a couple more pics.

The top pic shows the larger structure during the renovations.
In the establishing shot (2nd pic in my previous post) the windows would be oriented on the right hand side of this pic. Here one can't quite make out the two 11' long joists (which includes the one with the crack) because they are on the other side of the pipes, which obscures their view. I'm not sure if this pic is of my apartment or the one above (several floors were involved with slight variation on the number of joists needing replacement).

The bottom pic is an architect's plan of the joist renovations.


*I forgot to mention in my first post that this is a 6 story apartment building.
Also, my apologies for any grammatical errors, my window for editing the first post has elapsed.

 

[Mingledtrash]

First off i am not an engineer.
My first thought would be to cut plywood or osb to the height of the rafter(7") and then use crown staples or 8d or 10d nails to attach it to both sides. You will need an engineer or someone smarter than me to tell you how thick of plywood to use and how far apart to place the staples/nails and what size of nails you need to use but short of completely replacing the rafter this is likely the most practical solution.

edit: there are very specific rules to cutting holes in rafters.

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_5_sec002.htm
R502.8.1 Sawn lumber.
Notches in solid lumber joists, rafters and beams shall not exceed one-sixth of the depth of the member, shall not be longer than one-third of the depth of the member and shall not be located in the middle one-third of the span. Notches at the ends of the member shall not exceed one-fourth the depth of the member. The tension side of members 4 inches (102 mm) or greater in nominal thickness shall not be notched except at the ends of the members. The diameter of holes bored or cut into members shall not exceed one-third the depth of the member. Holes shall not be closer than 2 inches (51 mm) to the top or bottom of the member, or to any other hole located in the member. Where the member is also notched, the hole shall not be closer than 2 inches (51 mm) to the notch.

 

[Lovegasoline]

Mingledtrash, thanks a bunch for the suggestion and the references.

 

[Lovegasoline]

Here's a couple additional pics showing both sides of the cracked joist.

Notice that the crack doesn't go all the way through the thickness of the joist.

I've done some woodworking in the past but am no expert. the nature of the crack looks like a 'check':
http://blog.spib.org/shakes-checks-and-splits-in-dimension-lumber/

Upon close inspection where the check crosses through the drilled pipe hole it's possible to use the hole as a gauge to see how deep the check runs into the joist: at the hole the check is just about, or slightly under, one half the thickness of the joist.

Any engineers out there?

 

[Lovegasoline]

Mingledtrash's referenced code states, "The diameter of holes bored or cut into members shall not exceed one-third the depth of the member."

Given that the depth of the joist is 7.25", accordingly the largest diameter hole in this application is 2.41". The pipe is 2" in diameter. In my opinion, this doesn't leave enough room for repositioning the pipe to correct the pitch. Are there any plumbers out there that can give an opinion on what sort of work would be necessary to correct the pipe's pitch, and how would that impact on the two joists?

 

[Aggie67]

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever repair a split or damaged rafter, joist, or stud with plywood or OSB. I am a licensed engineer, and I have been down this road many, many times, and I've done the calculations. Adding plywood or OSB gives you very little bang for your buck. From a strength perspective, it only adds 15% or so of bending capacity to an already sound member. So think about it: bridging a split with plywood would only deliver 15% of the original member's capacity, and not return it to 100%. I've heard people try to stiffen floors with it, but they obviously didn't do any calcs, which would have revealed the error of their ways. Plywood has many great uses, including repairs to truss joints (which, I may add, requires a very specific calculation to make sure you get it right). But adding bending capacity or replacing bending capacity is NOT one of them.

Your best bet is to get an engineer in there to check the load paths to make sure the split is only due to the pipe, and not something more serious. And if the pipe absolutely has to stay there, then the engineer can recommend a course of action to both repair the joist, and make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

[carpdad]

Sorry didn't read all of your description. I am wondering if you can live with it because the joists are spaced really close. Assuming the ply is 3/4 and depending on whats above it, your joists are 19-24" o.c.? This is one of those cases when eye inspection and more open structure may be needed.

 

[Lovegasoline]

Sorry didn't read all of your description. I am wondering if you can live with it because the joists are spaced really close. Assuming the ply is 3/4 and depending on whats above it, your joists are 19-24" o.c.? This is one of those cases when eye inspection and more open structure may be needed.

The joists are 14" on center (stated in the first post).

 

[Lovegasoline]

Your best bet is to get an engineer in there to check the load paths to make sure the split is only due to the pipe, and not something more serious. And if the pipe absolutely has to stay there, then the engineer can recommend a course of action to both repair the joist, and make sure it doesn't happen again.

The reason that I'm posting here is I'd like to get some input from engineers and contractors who have dealt with a similar sort of condition before, and are familiar with what generally is necessary and what is overkill, with an emphasis on repairs that are structurally sound but also at the quick and dirty end of the spectrum. I just would like some opinions.

Generally speaking, what would be the recommended range of options to:
1) repair the joist (or is it fine as it is?).
2) slightly relocate the hole on a vertical axis to correctly pitch the plumbing pipe?

Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to hire an engineer. It's a residential apartment building and I don't own the building, I'm a tenant.
The building manager and his plumber eyeballed the hole in the ceiling and saw the cracked joist: the plumber was concerned that drilling another hole or repositioning the hole to pitch the pipe might compromise the strength of the joist. The manager told me he'd speak to his engineer and get back to me, which he did. He told me his engineer (who has not visited the site) said that the crack is not a structural concern and doesn't need to be repaired. In order to relocate or enlarge the hole for the heating pipe to pitch it correctly, all that's needed is a short section of wood (about 1 foot long) sistered against the joist where the hole is located is all that's needed. Then a new hole can be drilled (or old hole enlarged) through both wood thicknesses.

I’d like to get some feedback regarding the condition of this joist and typical repair strategies so that I’ll at least have some foundation with which to assess the proposal presented by the manager about how to fix it. He may be right and all that’s needed is to sister a small section of wood to the joist and drill an new hole. But how can I know?

In the past here’s been a history of systematic corruption on the part of the owner and all of his associates, including his licensed architects, engineers, plumbers, and contractors. They systematically, deliberately, and repeatedly misrepresented the condition of the structure and also deliberately misrepresented the building codes - not just to me - but also to numerous city agencies including false testimony to numerous courts, as a ploy to avoid the expense of a code compliant repair. Perhaps the owner has now changed his stripes. I'm not prepared to reform anyone.

I'd just like to be armed with some good information regarding repairs of this nature so I can better assess the situation and steer it towards an acceptable resolution.

 

[Aggie67]

Best bet is to hire a local engineer with a rock-solid reputation. Fishing for advice in a chat room, particularly when you want to counter suspect advice from a licensed professional, won't serve you well.

 

[Lovegasoline]

^That's perfectly fine and valuable advice ... in an ideal world.


To Clarify:
I am not the owner of the building. I'm a long term tenant renting the space. It's not my job or responsibility to repair this. Were it my building then sure, as part of my business expenses I'd hire a licensed architect and engineer of good repute, hire a quality contractor to pull a permit, and get the job done.

Unfortunately, the very wealthy owner of the building is morally defective and has a long track record of wilfully failing to make repairs in a safe, compliant, and legal manner mated to a complete disdain for State, City, and local authorities. His modus operandi is to attempt to crush legally - with abundant resources - any opposition or application of due process. He’s been doing this a long time. Any notion that this can be changed or the individual in question reformed, is pure naiveté. There’s a fully entrenched system in place to thwart any such opposition.

I do appreciate forum members' ideals of how the renovation process and building integrity should unfold. But this is a different and more difficult situation. I'd like to get some feedback regarding my questions about how generally a checked/cracked joist member is treated ... based on the abundant photos and description (and there's an architects's plan of the previous renovation included for good measure).

If I receive no feedback with which I can interject into the repair process, than I can safely assume the repair will proceed as described by the building manager: a 1" long piece of wood will be sistered next to the hole and a new hole drilled to reroute the pipe. The sheetrock will be repaired and that will be the end of the story. Period.

If such a procedure appears sufficient in this case, then please place my mind at ease and tell me so. I'll then gladly welcome the repair with peace of mind. On the other hand, if there's a better method to handle this and there is actually a need to fortify the cracked joist (short of doing a joist replacement) it's possible the owner would be amenable to implementing it, with my feedback. As it stands, I have absolutely zero basis on which to contribute any input to the process.

If there are any moral qualms regarding offering some good contracting methodology and/or technical engineering input on a DIY forum, please understand that any feedback into how to safely repair this situation, even if it is incrementally safer than the present status quo, will be valuable and useful in making this structure safer for the inhabitants.

Thanks again for your help and any ideas on repair strategy.

 

[Daniel Holzman]

Professional engineers such as myself are legally and ethically prohibited from offering advice to individuals such as yourself in cases where we have not seen the site, and do not have a contract with the individual to perform services. No professional engineer or architect who values their license is in a position to discuss your specific situation, which from the tone of your post sounds like it is close to a legal case on your part. So the only folks on this particular forum likely to weigh in are non-professionals.

So exactly what are you going to do with non-professional advice? If you leave your post up long enough, you will eventually get responses that range from "it's fine the way it is" to "run away before the building collapses". This is true for virtually every type of open ended question on this forum, whether it be the dangers of asbestos, electrical grounding issues, retaining wall construction, you name it. You get lots of responses, with no way to evaluate the efficacy, accuracy, or appropriateness of them. Tough situation, I wish you good luck with the repairs.

 

[Mingledtrash]

^That's perfectly fine and valuable advice ... in an ideal world.


To Clarify:
I am not the owner of the building. I'm a long term tenant renting the space. It's not my job or responsibility to repair this. Were it my building then sure, as part of my business expenses I'd hire a licensed architect and engineer of good repute, hire a quality contractor to pull a permit, and get the job done.

Unfortunately, the very wealthy owner of the building is morally defective and has a long track record of wilfully failing to make repairs in a safe, compliant, and legal manner mated to a complete disdain for State, City, and local authorities. His modus operandi is to attempt to crush legally - with abundant resources - any opposition or application of due process. He’s been doing this a long time. Any notion that this can be changed or the individual in question reformed, is pure naiveté. There’s a fully entrenched system in place to thwart any such opposition.

I do appreciate forum members' ideals of how the renovation process and building integrity should unfold. But this is a different and more difficult situation. I'd like to get some feedback regarding my questions about how generally a checked/cracked joist member is treated ... based on the abundant photos and description (and there's an architects's plan of the previous renovation included for good measure).

If I receive no feedback with which I can interject into the repair process, than I can safely assume the repair will proceed as described by the building manager: a 1" long piece of wood will be sistered next to the hole and a new hole drilled to reroute the pipe. The sheetrock will be repaired and that will be the end of the story. Period.

If such a procedure appears sufficient in this case, then please place my mind at ease and tell me so. I'll then gladly welcome the repair with peace of mind. On the other hand, if there's a better method to handle this and there is actually a need to fortify the cracked joist (short of doing a joist replacement) it's possible the owner would be amenable to implementing it, with my feedback. As it stands, I have absolutely zero basis on which to contribute any input to the process.

If there are any moral qualms regarding offering some good contracting methodology and/or technical engineering input on a DIY forum, please understand that any feedback into how to safely repair this situation, even if it is incrementally safer than the present status quo, will be valuable and useful in making this structure safer for the inhabitants.

Thanks again for your help and any ideas on repair strategy.

In this situation you have two options
1) hire an engineer yourself and then report the problem if there is one to the proper authority or advise the building owner. or hire an attorney.
2) move out.

from what you said previously the building owner has hired professionals to deal with the problem there is no "typical" repair every situation is different and can only be properly assessed with an onsite inspection by a qualified professional.

its not your building and its not your decision to make.
We cannot second guess what a licensed engineer recommended based a few pictures of the problem.

 

[Mingledtrash]

maybe this will help. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=How+to+repair+a+floor+joist

 

[jlhaslip]

Well, you have some really good advise supplied in this thread.
What do you plan to do with it?

 

[Gary in WA]

I may be wrong... IMHO, I would 90* elbow to the required joist space for the radiator over the bearing wall--- rather than out in mid-span as is. This may require replacing/cutting/threading the existing pipe shorter to use the remainder piece to reach the rad, in the correct bay- re-routing with the ells back over the bearing wall. Before coming across same wall, double the split joist on the hanger side, then drill. The steam/moisture has left tracks on the wood showing the FG insulation is not effective to keep the joist from getting wet OR drying out- hence the split showing severe cupping due to moisture /heat on one side only. May have trouble understanding this- my wife will agree....

Gary

 

[Lovegasoline]

I may be wrong... IMHO, I would 90* elbow to the required joist space for the radiator over the bearing wall--- rather than out in mid-span as is. This may require replacing/cutting/threading the existing pipe shorter to use the remainder piece to reach the rad, in the correct bay- re-routing with the ells back over the bearing wall. Before coming across same wall, double the split joist on the hanger side, then drill. The steam/moisture has left tracks on the wood showing the FG insulation is not effective to keep the joist from getting wet OR drying out- hence the split showing severe cupping due to moisture /heat on one side only. May have trouble understanding this- my wife will agree....

Gary

I like the idea of rerouting the pipes ... but yes, I'm having a little trouble following your description :confused1:


What are 'ells'?

 

[Gary in WA]

Just go through the joists (perpendicular) before leaving the bearing wall area, closer the better. Double the joist before running the pipe. So you have a straight pipe from the radiator to the bearing wall before drilling new holes across to main at other radiator. If not enough room over the wall, behind the header joist, run it just inboard of the hangers leaving the required joist meat below for tension/compression per code as said. Get it into the radiator bay from the other radiator bay, making the crossing close to the bearing wall rather than out in mid-span, they should have done that at install...

Gary
PS. ell= right angle pipe turn--- insulate to stop moisture/heat from bowing/cupping any more joists.