[USAF_Retired]

Two years ago we purchased our current home, and the first thing was - REMODEL... Beginning with the patio roof. Which consisted of 4x4 treated posts (6 ea) positioned directly onto the concrete slab. 2x6 rafters toe nailed to a 2x10 fascia board, with metal roofing panels ( R-panel ). Nothing fancy but functional.

So with the help of a friend, it all came down. Metal R-panels were repurposed elsewhere, as were the 4x4 treated posts. The 2x6 rafters were salvaged, good condition boards reused, while not so good boards were either repurposed or burned.

New 2x10 fascia boards bought and put up. New R-Panel metal roofing purchased. New 6x6 (actual) cedar boards purchased for posts and headers. New cedar planks (fencing material) was bought for the underside to help conceal the rafters as well as insulate occupants from the heated metal panels in dead of summer.

Here are a couple pictures of the end result...

Single Cedar Post Cedar Ceiling Planks

Wide Shot of Patio


I also drew up some plans for this project with layout, dimensions, material, etc. I have three .pdf's with info written on each. They are as follows:

Sagging Roof-pg1: 2x6x16'5" rafters. 2x4 laths with 2'6" on center. 6x6 (actual) cedar posts and header
Sagging Roof-pg2: Spacing between the 6x6 cedar posts, total of 44.8 feet. On top of post 2, 3, 4, 5, cedar headers have lap joints with a single recessed galvanized screw through the center of joint into center of the post. Beams marked with letter "A", have lap joint on post 2 and 5, continuing over and resting on top of 1 and 6, and extending over the ends by 36".
Sagging Roof-pg3: 2x6x16"5" rafters, resting on the header, secured in place with angle brackets and construction screws. Rafters secured to fascia on the house with hangers and construction screws. Spacing for the rafters is 34" OC, with two exceptions (the center of the roof has two rafters spaced 12 inches apart, and the ends of the roof has 1 rafter directly over top the cedar post, and 2nd rafter spaced 17 inches out onto the overhang.
Finally, the construction has 2x4 laths laid across the rafters spaced at 30 inches OC.

With all this information, my question/s are two-fold.

First, are there any concerns with the construction of the patio remodel? For the most part, I just followed the same measurement spacing, board size, roofing panels, etc as the original. With the exception of the cedar planks for the patio ceiling.

Second, and Much More Important question is: If the is something lacking, which has led to my sag between posts 2, 3, and 4, are there any suggestions forum members would like to pass on to correct my issue? If at all possible, I would like to avoid having to remove any (or as few as possible) of the cedar planks on the patio ceiling.

My first thought was to install a beam parallel and between posts 3 and 4 at about 9 to 10 feet from the wall of the house, supported by 2 additional posts.

Any and All recommendations welcome and greatly appreciated.

 

[chandler48]

Nice job on the post and surrounds. Fencing was the last product I would have used as a cover. Too unstable and too thin. 2x6's can normally only span 11'6", so your situation is overspanned and will sag. Your only solution may be to install a mid span support.

 

[House Designer]

Your 2x6 rafters are grossly under-sized. And your 6x6 beams are grossly undersized for their span. "Nuff said.
Why don't you pay a professional engineer to correct your design? It is a simple matter of loads, spans, and lumber sizes. And knowing your geographic load requirements (wind, snow, etc.)
If you find somebody who is reasonable, it shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks to specify all of the members correctly, and stand behind their advice.

 

[Nealtw]

You could remove the roofing and purlins, sister the rafters and add more. 2x10s would have been used here 16" OC.
How would that effect the join to the house roof?

 

[USAF_Retired]

Chandler, House Designer and Nealtw, thank you all for your replies. Although hearing my situation ( construction of the cover / roof ) was a bit under-supported, I was prepared to hear just that.
As mentioned before, all comments welcome.

Chandler: Fencing was the last product I would have used as a cover. Too unstable and too thin
The reason I went this way, I wanted that rustic look, uneven, joints not perfect, varying thickness. Gives it a downhome "Little House on the Prairie" sort of feel.

House Designer: pay a professional engineer to correct your design
Point well taken. In fact I am already looking in the local area for some to contact.

Nealtw: remove the roofing and purlins, sister the rafters and add more
Although a great suggestion, I'm afraid it can't be done. Taking the metal roof off after spending countless hours, days, weeks, trying to find and fill every leak when it rains was an ordeal I would not want to put myself through again.
But there is another reason, and this is some that I forgot to mention in my original post (Sorry 'bout that...)

Throughout the entire system of rafters from the house to the ends, I cut and nailed in place 2x6 boards in-between each row of rafters.
Every row has either 4 or 5 of these spacers for stability of the 2x6 rafters. But I think there is an added benefit. Would it not stand to reason that if rafter number 4 is joined to rafter 5 with these spacers, and 5 is joined to rafter 6, and so on and so on. Would this joining create some strength in the overall 2x6 rafter? Even a bit?????
And due to these spacers, Nealtw, your suggestion to "sister the rafters" with a 2x6 attached on the side, with these spacers in place, every single one would have to be cut out first, then add the sister, then cut and fit the spacers and toenail in place.

Some additional info. The rain let up for me, so I went up on top to get some measurements of the sag. Starting on the left at every even numbered ridge, I used my chaulk-line to measurements. The results are:

Ridge Gap Ridge Gap Ridge Gap Ridge Gap
2 1/4 16 1/2 30 1/2 44 3/8
4 1/4 18 3/4 32 5/8 46 1/4
6 1/4 20 3/4 34 5/8
8 1/4 22 5/8 36 1/2
10 1/4 24 3/4 38 1/2
12 5/16 26 1/2 40 7/16
14 5/16 28 1/2 42 7/16

The largest gap is 3/4" which begins at ridge 18 thru ridge 24

House Designer: your 6x6 beams are grossly undersized for their span.
Were I to install some corner braces at every post (such as pictured below), would that give the strength/support the 6x6's would require???

 

[USAF_Retired]

Formatting not exactly correct when sent. Here is the info in single column

Ridge Gap
2 - 1/4
4 - 1/4
6 - 1/4
8 - 1/4
10 - 1/4
12 - 5/16
14 - 5/16
16 - 1/2
18 - 3/4
20 - 3/4
22 - 5/8
24 - 3/4
26 - 1/2
28 - 1/2
30 - 1/2
32 - 5/8
34 - 5/8
36 - 1/2
40 - 7/16
42 - 7/16
44 - 3/8
46 - 1/4

 

[Nealtw]

Chandler, House Designer and Nealtw, thank you all for your replies. Although hearing my situation ( construction of the cover / roof ) was a bit under-supported, I was prepared to hear just that.
As mentioned before, all comments welcome.

Chandler: Fencing was the last product I would have used as a cover. Too unstable and too thin
The reason I went this way, I wanted that rustic look, uneven, joints not perfect, varying thickness. Gives it a downhome "Little House on the Prairie" sort of feel.

House Designer: pay a professional engineer to correct your design
Point well taken. In fact I am already looking in the local area for some to contact.

Nealtw: remove the roofing and purlins, sister the rafters and add more
Although a great suggestion, I'm afraid it can't be done. Taking the metal roof off after spending countless hours, days, weeks, trying to find and fill every leak when it rains was an ordeal I would not want to put myself through again.
But there is another reason, and this is some that I forgot to mention in my original post (Sorry 'bout that...)

Throughout the entire system of rafters from the house to the ends, I cut and nailed in place 2x6 boards in-between each row of rafters.
Every row has either 4 or 5 of these spacers for stability of the 2x6 rafters. But I think there is an added benefit. Would it not stand to reason that if rafter number 4 is joined to rafter 5 with these spacers, and 5 is joined to rafter 6, and so on and so on. Would this joining create some strength in the overall 2x6 rafter? Even a bit?????
And due to these spacers, Nealtw, your suggestion to "sister the rafters" with a 2x6 attached on the side, with these spacers in place, every single one would have to be cut out first, then add the sister, then cut and fit the spacers and toenail in place.

Some additional info. The rain let up for me, so I went up on top to get some measurements of the sag. Starting on the left at every even numbered ridge, I used my chaulk-line to measurements. The results are:

Ridge Gap Ridge Gap Ridge Gap Ridge Gap
2 1/4 16 1/2 30 1/2 44 3/8
4 1/4 18 3/4 32 5/8 46 1/4
6 1/4 20 3/4 34 5/8
8 1/4 22 5/8 36 1/2
10 1/4 24 3/4 38 1/2
12 5/16 26 1/2 40 7/16
14 5/16 28 1/2 42 7/16

The largest gap is 3/4" which begins at ridge 18 thru ridge 24

House Designer: your 6x6 beams are grossly undersized for their span.
Were I to install some corner braces at every post (such as pictured below), would that give the strength/support the 6x6's would require???

View attachment 735517

Peak, I assumed it was a shed roof leaning on the house. If you have a peak and 2 sets of rafters, check the posts for leaning out on top.

 

[House Designer]

House Designer: your 6x6 beams are grossly undersized for their span.
Were I to install some corner braces at every post (such as pictured below), would that give the strength/support the 6x6's would require???

View attachment 735517

Corner braces simply add stability to prevent the structure from racking. They don't improve the strength of the beam span in any meaningful way.
Also, your 2x6 blocking, installed between each rafter, helps prevent buckling of the rafter, but doesn't improve the strength of the rafter span in any meaningful way.
Increasing the height of the beam, from a 6x6 to a 6x10 or a 6x12, would vastly increase the beam strength. Or, adding a center post to cut the spans in half would accomplish the same thing.

 

[USAF_Retired]

Nealtw... Not wanting to assume and think I am understanding "have a peak and 2 sets of rafters, check the posts for leaning out on top.", could you elaborate more to make sure I understand?

House Designer: I am going to have to chew on your latest reply a bit. In my mind I have a possible fix to take care of both the sagging as well as the 6x6 header spanning issue. One thing I wouldn't want to do is add a post in-between the existing posts. That means covering a distance of 45 feet with 11 posts. That is a post every 4 feet.
Let me draw something up and attach it for your viewing. In the meantime, I have contacted an architectural consulting firm for residential - hope to hear from them soon.

 

[Nealtw]

Nealtw... Not wanting to assume and think I am understanding "have a peak and 2 sets of rafters, check the posts for leaning out on top.", could you elaborate more to make sure I understand?

House Designer: I am going to have to chew on your latest reply a bit. In my mind I have a possible fix to take care of both the sagging as well as the 6x6 header spanning issue. One thing I wouldn't want to do is add a post in-between the existing posts. That means covering a distance of 45 feet with 11 posts. That is a post every 4 feet.
Let me draw something up and attach it for your viewing. In the meantime, I have contacted an architectural consulting firm for residential - hope to hear from them soon.

Is this the shape of the roof?

 

[USAF_Retired]

Side profile view of home.. Just Representation, Not Scale...

Front of house on the left, frt patio much smaller in width compared to rear patio (on right)..
3 different roof pitches.
Back patio is the smallest
Frt patio is next up, with primary roof for the home with the highest pitch

 

[Nealtw]

Side profile view of home.. Just Representation, Not Scale...

View attachment 735564

Front of house on the left, frt patio much smaller in width compared to rear patio (on right)..
3 different roof pitches.
Back patio is the smallest
Frt patio is next up, with primary roof for the home with the highest pitch

When you measured the sag you said ridge the ridge would be at the center or peak.
So can you point out what you were calling the ridge?

 

[USAF_Retired]

The ridge I was speaking of is the 4 high spots (1 1/4") as shown above.

What I did was take my chalk line (end) and position it at the top the R-panel (closest to home). Position the clip on top of the ridge, and using a magnet would hold it in place. Now run the chalk line down the panel and over the edge, resting the line on the same ridge as the clip. Now just take a measurement (as best I could with the winds blowing the line) at what appears to be the lowest point of the panel. I did it this way for every other ridge to get a general idea to the amount of sag.

 

[Nealtw]

View attachment 735622

The ridge I was speaking of is the 4 high spots (1 1/4") as shown above.

What I did was take my chalk line (end) and position it at the top the R-panel (closest to home). Position the clip on top of the ridge, and using a magnet would hold it in place. Now run the chalk line down the panel and over the edge, resting the line on the same ridge as the clip. Now just take a measurement (as best I could with the winds blowing the line) at what appears to be the lowest point of the panel. I did it this way for every other ridge to get a general idea to the amount of sag.

To many unknowns with the R panel, wind and string not tight enough.
Wit tight strings you would check the 2 end rafters from below and then you would pull a string end to end about the center so you could compare rafters to the end ones.
You would pull a tight string between 2 nails,

Then you trap twin blocks above the string on both ends and measure the center.

This video show show to tie a string tight.
His trick for locking the knot does not always work in tight places just a couple wraps around the nail will lock it too.

 

[USAF_Retired]

There is some good information here, video and all, but...
Running the string on the rafter bottom edge would be great, 'cept mine are covered with uneven cedar planks.

Now, I could take out the first row of planks at the 6x6 header to do the nail. And there is still one uncovered row at the fascia board at the house I could put the other nail and tie the string.

But problem is still that unevenness of the planks as I make my way across the ceiling. Would hate having to remove another row. Any suggestions on how to go about getting measurements with boards in place?