[physdl]

My house has a deck that was probably built 15-20 years ago (I've only lived here since last year). I've recently started turning my focus to it and have discovered some unsettling things. The primary safety issue is that the ledger board and ledger strip seem to have been placed on the outside of the siding and are connected to the house using only nails. Most of the deck joists are just supported by the strip - others are in hangers.

I know one of the main issues is moisture between the siding and the ledger board - this is less of a problem here due to 2 foot roof overhang + a deck roof that I believe has been in place since it was built (I'm replacing it right now actually). Even without the roof, I don't see any water in that area despite heavy rain.

My main question is can this connection be reinforced with structural or lag screws? I'm worried that doing this would pull the ledger board against the siding, which may make it less vertical than it is today. Any thoughts on the best way to approach this?

 

[Californiadecks]

You can shim between the ledger and siding any area the starts to pull out of plumb as you install the lags. Just use composite Sims.

 

[Californiadecks]

You can shim between the ledger and siding any area the starts to pull out of plumb as you install the lags. Just use composite Sims.

And you don't need to crank the lags to the point they are doing damage.

 

[carpdad]

What I'd do for your deck is make it into a free standing deck. Sandwiching a siding is just not a good idea and nails eventually come loose and noway near the "bite" of threaded lag screws. I don't think you should have a lot of work. 3-4 footings?, beam, posts and diag braces all around. Then remove 2-3 courses of decking and siding and flashing for the joint. Remove the siding to make sure you're screwing into the studs, min. All that to make sure the sandwiched siding remain dry.
Plywood and other things against the wall, and the compost piled against the wood siding is inviting termites and other moisture damage. Damage there is difficult and expensive to fix.

 

[physdl]

And you don't need to crank the lags to the point they are doing damage.

Good point. I have access to the inside of the rim joist (drop ceiling) so I can even do it with through bolts. Just making sure they're just tight should do the trick without creating any problems.

What I'd do for your deck is make it into a free standing deck.

Long-term, I agree. But if I'm going to put that much effort into the deck, I should probably just rebuild it, since this is not the only substantial issue with the deck. In the meantime though, that area remains dry and I see no evidence of any rot there, so apart from watching it (and keeping it clear of things - good point) I think just doing some simple reinforcing is the extent of things I want to do right now.

 

[Aggie67]

It's poor practice to attach a deck ledger directly to siding. It's also a non-prescriptive technique. And if any component starts to crush merely from the correct installation of a lag bolt, you have a materials problem. If that is the case, you should be standing off with washers, which Table R502.2.2.1 (2009 IRC) allows, but only for through-bolts and for only a max stand-off height.

 

[Californiadecks]

It's poor practice to attach a deck ledger directly to siding. It's also a non-prescriptive technique. And if any component starts to crush merely from the correct installation of a lag bolt, you have a materials problem. If that is the case, you should be standing off with washers, which Table R502.2.2.1 (2009 IRC) allows, but only for through-bolts and for only a max stand-off height.

It's already attached. If he's gonna be tearing it down eventually he needs to secure it with more than just nails. The lags will be sufficient as long as it's temporary. He said it's been there for years with just nails without any rot. Adding lags won't cause it to suddenly rot.

 

[Californiadecks]

Physdl, if you can get to the back side of the house rim, just use thru bolts.

 

[de-nagorg]

physdl, if you can get to the back side of the house rim, just use thru bolts.

ditto that


ed

 

[de-nagorg]

Lousy machine timed out, then posted this twice.


ED

 

[physdl]

Californiadecks, that's basically what the plan is. We're aware that the deck is not constructed in the best way, but it's fine for the moment and we don't quite know what we want to do with it - we barely use it at the moment. My goal right now is to reinforce as best as possible without spending a fortune before we decide what to do in the next 5 years or so.

Two questions:

1. I'll put through bolts for the ledger board. What should I do about the ledger strip? Right now it's nailed into (I hope) the rim joist. I assume it doesn't need to be bolted, since it won't pull away. Are there guidelines on how many nails it needs?
2. If there was a pulling force on the joists, the only thing stopping them right now would be that they were toe-nailed into the ledger board. Joist hangers would be the best upgrade, but they won't fit since the joists are resting on the ledger strip. Would simple 4" wide or so angles work to hold them? None are rated for pulling force, but it would probably be good to upgrade those connections as well.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[ChuckF.]

This is typical of 20-30 year old decks. There's a million of them out there.

Show us a picture of the posts that hold up the other side, you probably will need some bolts there, maybe some angle braces. When you are on the deck, can you shake it from side to side.

 

[physdl]

This is typical of 20-30 year old decks. There's a million of them out there.

Show us a picture of the posts that hold up the other side, you probably will need some bolts there, maybe some angle braces. When you are on the deck, can you shake it from side to side.

Only a million? Probably a lot more :smile: Mine is completely sturdy. A few small spots of rot along the boards along the outside, but you wouldn't know it was structurally deficient if you didn't look. Probably the overhang + being painted helped.

Too dark for a picture right now, but that's already planned. The posts on the other side definitely do need brackets. Posts are straight up from the patio, through the deck to the railing. Joist is nailed along the side, band is nailed to the perpendicular side of the post. A few have lag screws, the rest don't. There already is some sort of bracket that connects the post to both the band and the joist, but it looks relatively small.

I'm planning to add DJT14Z ties (which seem to be made for this purpose) to reinforce. Maybe also some through bolts where the old brackets interfere - pulling them off will probably be annoying and may cause damage.

Will also probably add joist hangers between the joists and the band, since they're just nailed to the band joist from the outside. Also will do some work to reinforce the railing.

 

[Californiadecks]

Californiadecks, that's basically what the plan is. We're aware that the deck is not constructed in the best way, but it's fine for the moment and we don't quite know what we want to do with it - we barely use it at the moment. My goal right now is to reinforce as best as possible without spending a fortune before we decide what to do in the next 5 years or so.

Two questions:

1. I'll put through bolts for the ledger board. What should I do about the ledger strip? Right now it's nailed into (I hope) the rim joist. I assume it doesn't need to be bolted, since it won't pull away. Are there guidelines on how many nails it needs?
2. If there was a pulling force on the joists, the only thing stopping them right now would be that they were toe-nailed into the ledger board. Joist hangers would be the best upgrade, but they won't fit since the joists are resting on the ledger strip. Would simple 4" wide or so angles work to hold them? None are rated for pulling force, but it would probably be good to upgrade those connections as well.

Thanks for all your help!

You may be able to lift the joists just enough to get a hanger in there. Also I'd bolt that ledger underneath.

 

[physdl]

You may be able to lift the joists just enough to get a hanger in there. Also I'd bolt that ledger underneath.

The joists aren't moving. I'm sure I could jack it up, but I don't think it's worth it. I think that's a good thing.

Bad news though is that I took a few measurements and it looks like the ledger board is a 1x6, while the ledger strip is a 2x4 just underneath the ledger board (not connected). That together matches up with the rim joist of the house (hopefully it's completely aligned), but it does mean that the joists are resting only on 3/4" of wood. Every other joist or so there's an extra 1x4 nailed to the ledger strip to (I assume) provide the full 1.5" of support necessary.

Since it's only a 1x6, relying on the ledger board to support joist hangers is probably not a good idea anyway - I think the ledger strip is needed. So I think my plan is to add 1x4's where they're missing and use either through bolts or (more likely) structural screws for each joist depending on how close to the bottom edge of the house rim joist the ledger strip is. Then add angles connecting the joists to the ledger board. Between all that, I think it'll stay attached.

Does that sound reasonable and relatively secure? I don't think there's any other option short of completely re-building.

 

[Californiadecks]

The joists aren't moving. I'm sure I could jack it up, but I don't think it's worth it. I think that's a good thing.

Bad news though is that I took a few measurements and it looks like the ledger board is a 1x6, while the ledger strip is a 2x4 just underneath the ledger board (not connected). That together matches up with the rim joist of the house (hopefully it's completely aligned), but it does mean that the joists are resting only on 3/4" of wood. Every other joist or so there's an extra 1x4 nailed to the ledger strip to (I assume) provide the full 1.5" of support necessary.

Since it's only a 1x6, relying on the ledger board to support joist hangers is probably not a good idea anyway - I think the ledger strip is needed. So I think my plan is to add 1x4's where they're missing and use either through bolts or (more likely) structural screws for each joist depending on how close to the bottom edge of the house rim joist the ledger strip is. Then add angles connecting the joists to the ledger board. Between all that, I think it'll stay attached.

Does that sound reasonable and relatively secure? I don't think there's any other option short of completely re-building.

I would pull that scabbed on 1x below the joists and add a full length 2x at least. The more bearing the better. Thru bolt or lag the 2x into good solid backing. Use FastenMaster ledgerloks. Then put an angle bracket on the bottom of each joist to the (new) bottom 2x ledger. This will at least help prevent any pull out. Here's what I'm thinking of. Then think seriously about doing a complete rebuild asap. I believe it's a Simpson A44

 

[Californiadecks]

Or at least get an A-35 on the side of each joist.but that might be an issue with that thin ledger. I didn't realize that was the case. Just be careful with anything you do.