[pgmrfco]

I'm rehabbing an old 2-story farm house built in 1904. I found that rim joists have pulled completely away from the floor joists with maybe 1 1/2 inches of the floor joists still resting on the sill plate. As you would expect the walls are buckled out. Has been that way for at least 50yrs.



What do you think? Possible to pull everything back together?

 

[House Designer]

I have seen an instance of what you are talking about. The floor joists were perpendicular to the wall in question. The carpenters mistakenly used an 8" width of floor sheathing along one wall. 8" width of floor sheathing does not have enough bite on floor joists to hold the rim joist stable, so the rim joist rocked outward and the wall above it rocked outward over a few years. The solution was to jack up the wall, remove narrow pieces of sheathing and install pieces that are at least 2' wide, if not 3'. The lesson learned is to never use narrow pieces of floor sheathing close to the edge of a floor deck when constructing a house. Don't use narrow pieces at all- Plan ahead with the sheet layout.

if your issue is happening on an exterior wall that is parallel to the direction of floor joists, then the issue could be insufficient blocking, strips of sheathing too narrow, or both.

Yes, it is possible to pull everything back together with come-alongs, but you have to address the floor sheathing, blocking, or nailing defect that allowed it to happen in the first place, or else it will recur.

 

[Nealtw]

I'm rehabbing an old 2-story farm house built in 1904. I found that rim joists have pulled completely away from the floor joists with maybe 1 1/2 inches of the floor joists still resting on the sill plate. As you would expect the walls are buckled out. Has been that way for at least 50yrs.



What do you think? Possible to pull everything back together?

Can you post pictures, yes it can be fixed, it does not sound like a house built in 1904.

 

[Nealtw]

I would put some bolts thru the rim with big washers and use these to pull it back in.

 

[Nealtw]

I have seen an instance of what you are talking about. The floor joists were perpendicular to the wall in question. The carpenters mistakenly used an 8" width of floor sheathing along one wall. 8" width of floor sheathing does not have enough bite on floor joists to hold the rim joist stable, so the rim joist rocked outward and the wall above it rocked outward over a few years. The solution was to jack up the wall, remove narrow pieces of sheathing and install pieces that are at least 2' wide, if not 3'. The lesson learned is to never use narrow pieces of floor sheathing close to the edge of a floor deck when constructing a house. Don't use narrow pieces at all- Plan ahead with the sheet layout.

if your issue is happening on an exterior wall that is parallel to the direction of floor joists, then the issue could be insufficient blocking, strips of sheathing too narrow, or both.

Yes, it is possible to pull everything back together with come-alongs, but you have to address the floor sheathing, blocking, or nailing defect that allowed it to happen in the first place, or else it will recur.

Watch who you are blaming for a mistake. :biggrin2:
Framers always start with a full sheet and end up with what is left.

Eight inches is not a problem, rather it a house that is 24 or 28 ft deep.
T&G plywood is 47 1/2" wide so when you get to 24 ft the plywood deck is 23'9 inches and last strip is 3".
You would think inspectors and engineers would catch that as a mistake and call for solid blocking under that joint so more nails could be added.

 

[pgmrfco]

Can you post pictures, yes it can be fixed, it does not sound like a house built in 1904.

Here are some pictures. I'm sure about the construction year; my father-in-law was born in the house in 1910.

You will notice that the space between the studs is filled in with brick. Maybe someone could explain why they would have done that? The exterior of the wall is 1x8in pine then wood siding and finally stucco. The bricks are loosely mortared in place.

 

[pgmrfco]

I was thinking about using the lateral load deck attachment fittings. Maybe one on each side of the floor joist and thru a metal plate on the outside of the rim joist. I wasn't sure that I would be able to torque down the nuts with enough force to pull things back together.

 

[Nealtw]

I was thinking about using the lateral load deck attachment fittings. Maybe one on each side of the floor joist and thru a metal plate on the outside of the rim joist. I wasn't sure that I would be able to torque down the nuts with enough force to pull things back together.

Ouch, yes that is not what I pictured, it is post and beam construction, the brick is a thermal mass like insulation or filler, they also did the filler with cord wood and mortar.

I have very limited experience with this and am reluctant to say to much.
That looks like one big beam to straighten out.

How long is each section of the timber?
Is there room to work below the floor?

 

[pgmrfco]

Ouch, yes that is not what I pictured, it is post and beam construction, the brick is a thermal mass like insulation or filler, they also did the filler with cord wood and mortar.

I have very limited experience with this and am reluctant to say to much.
That looks like one big beam to straighten out.

How long is each section of the timber?
Is there room to work below the floor?

Is that what they called it 100yrs ago? The studs are 2x4s(actual dimensions). The plate that they rest on varies; in some places it a 2x4 that spans several of the studs. Occasionally a stud extends all the way down to the sill plate, which looks to be a 2x6. In other places the studs are resting on 1in boards on top of bricks resting on the sill. The builder wasn't into consistency, but the house is still standing all these years later.



There is some room beneath the floor; maybe as much as 24in. I was planning on removing all the flooring and subflooring before proceeding much further...that and removing all the brick to make room for insulation.

 

[Nealtw]

Is that what they called it 100yrs ago? The studs are 2x4s(actual dimensions). The plate that they rest on varies; in some places it a 2x4 that spans several of the studs. Occasionally a stud extends all the way down to the sill plate, which looks to be a 2x6. In other places the studs are resting on 1in boards on top of bricks resting on the sill. The builder wasn't into consistency, but the house is still standing all these years later.



There is some room beneath the floor; maybe as much as 24in. I was planning on removing all the flooring and subflooring before proceeding much further...that and removing all the brick to make room for insulation.

Most houses back then were balloon framing but the floor hung on the side of the wall with those. And i am sure there was lots of mixed ideas being built, so you could have a little of both.



You may want the structure of the floor to pull against so for now I would just cut it back a few feet and that would give you better space for working in there.

If the brick isn't structural, the wall would be a lot lighter with out them.

 

[pgmrfco]

Most houses back then were balloon framing but the floor hung on the side of the wall with those. And i am sure there was lots of mixed ideas being built, so you could have a little of both.



You may want the structure of the floor to pull against so for now I would just cut it back a few feet and that would give you better space for working in there.

If the brick isn't structural, the wall would be a lot lighter with out them.

Like I said, the brick is loosely mortared...I don't think I'll even need a chisel to remove it:smile: Since they're so loose and sitting on edge to boot, I don't think they are helping support the upper floor.

 

[Nealtw]

Like I said, the brick is loosely mortared...I don't think I'll even need a chisel to remove it:smile: Since they're so loose and sitting on edge to boot, I don't think they are helping support the upper floor.

So if you remove them and then part of the floor. :wink2:

 

[House Designer]

Watch who you are blaming for a mistake. :biggrin2:
Framers always start with a full sheet and end up with what is left.

Eight inches is not a problem, rather it a house that is 24 or 28 ft deep.
T&G plywood is 47 1/2" wide so when you get to 24 ft the plywood deck is 23'9 inches and last strip is 3".
You would think inspectors and engineers would catch that as a mistake and call for solid blocking under that joint so more nails could be added.

Framers should NOT start with a full sheet and end up with what is left... Some carpenters may not be aware that APA Guidelines forbid plywood or OSB panels less than 24" wide on floor diaphragms (i.e. house floor deck.)
This is for strength reasons, to prevent rim joists from rolling outward due to wall loads.

APA Guidance on Floor Sheathing:

Plywood Diaphragms

Diaphragm sheathing nails or other approved sheathing connectors shall be driven flush but shall not fracture the surface of the sheathing.

Nails shall be placed not less than 3/8" in from the panel edge, shall be spaced not more than 6" on center along panel edge bearings, and shall be firmly driven into the framing members.

Plywood diaphragms and shear walls shall be constructed with plywood sheets not less than 4' x 8' except at boundaries and changes in framing where minimum sheet dimension shall be 24" unless all edges of the undersized sheets are supported by framing members or blocking.

Framing members or blocking shall be provided at the edges of all sheets in shear walls.

 

[Nealtw]

Framers should NOT start with a full sheet and end up with what is left... Some carpenters may not be aware that APA Guidelines forbid plywood or OSB panels less than 24" wide on floor diaphragms (i.e. house floor deck.)
This is for strength reasons, to prevent rim joists from rolling outward due to wall loads.

APA Guidance on Floor Sheathing:

Plywood Diaphragms

Diaphragm sheathing nails or other approved sheathing connectors shall be driven flush but shall not fracture the surface of the sheathing.

Nails shall be placed not less than 3/8" in from the panel edge, shall be spaced not more than 6" on center along panel edge bearings, and shall be firmly driven into the framing members.

Plywood diaphragms and shear walls shall be constructed with plywood sheets not less than 4' x 8' except at boundaries and changes in framing where minimum sheet dimension shall be 24" unless all edges of the undersized sheets are supported by framing members or blocking.

Framing members or blocking shall be provided at the edges of all sheets in shear walls.

Agree with all, the problem we see here is framers will do what they can get away with, if they even know and no one that inspects catches it.


Anyway it is a shame because the fix at time of construction is no big deal.:wink2: