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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
Sounds like more data needs to be collected. There is going to be a data plate somewhere visible on that unit. Open door, find it, etc. But be advised, High, low, med, matters none! They only have two modes....on, and off. That means if you put it on low when warming both ovens, it will draw the exact same current. Something seems up here unless someone installed a BA oven and didn't upgrade the electrical to handle it.
Before deviating from what the manufacturer specified as far as the breaker size, I would check the wire size.

Did the electrician install the correct wire size?

The wire should be #8 copper or #6 aluminum based on the 40 amp rating of the breaker.

If you increase the breaker size, you may need to increase the wire size, neither of which I see a need to do.

As other's have stated, the chances of every element being on at the same time are pretty low.
would try it and see if it affects your cooking style. I would also see what size wire is under the breaker. If they ran a #6 then you can go to a 50 amp breaker
This is all true about continuous vs total calculated load. I suppose the NEC allowed a 40 amp circuit, but that may be a bit stretching what you may need during the holidays. If you don't trip the 40 amp during normal use, you're fine and safe because the breaker is properly protecting the wire. If you do determine that you have #6 copper wire, do change the breaker to 50 amps.
According to the 2020 NEC your 16kW range actually is rated at 9.6kW when looking at Table 220.55 Demand Factor.
The range is over 12 kW so in column C the Maximum demand is 8kW then because of note 1. you add 5% for each 1kW over the 12kW column (4x5=20%) 20% of 8kW is 8x1.2 9.6kW.
9600/240V = 40AMPS.
Your range over-current protection is fine just don't turn on every damn thing at once.

Andy.
So my builder just had an electrician out there and after looking through the specs and testing the voltage, they want to run a new wire from the breaker to the oven.

It was #8 wire, but they’re going to be running a #6 wire now and upgrading the breaker.

Here’s the official specs…

https://products.geappliances.com/M...patcher?RequestType=PDF&Name=PS960YPFS_20.pdf

Here’s the installation instructions…

https://products.geappliances.com/M...ispatcher?RequestType=PDF&Name=31-11105-4.pdf

Is this the right move to make? I hate to create more problems having them run new wire, but don’t want any issues down the line.
 

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So my builder just had an electrician out there and after looking through the specs and testing the voltage, they want to run a new wire from the breaker to the oven.

It was #8 wire, but they’re going to be running a #6 wire now and upgrading the breaker.

Here’s the official specs.

https://products.geappliances.com/M...patcher?RequestType=PDF&Name=PS960YPFS_20.pdf

Is this the right move to make? I hate to create more problems having them run new wire, but don’t want any issues down the line.
Upgrading to a larger circuit isn't going to hurt or be a bad thing. Most people just wouldn't want to incur the ridiculous cost of needing an electrician. But if its not on your dime than go for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Upgrading to a larger circuit isn't going to hurt or be a bad thing. Most people just wouldn't want to incur the ridiculous cost of needing an electrician. But if its not on your dime than go for it.
Definitely not on my dime, I just wonder how GE can get away with advertising this on a 40amp breaker if it needs a larger wire.

I also confirmed with the inspector that they did both ovens to 350 and had the burners on high. Unlikely to be like that, but maybe on Thanksgiving?

How difficult is it to re-run this wire? The entire attic is already insulated, they drilled a hole in the 2x4 and ran the wire down the wall (also insulated) so I’m wondering how difficult this is going to be.

Here’s a bad image, but the wire is running here before it’s insulated…

Building Wood Electrical wiring Electricity Facade
Window Fixture Electrical wiring Building Electricity
 

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The inspector was checking everything and noted that when both ovens are on the hottest temperatures and all the burners are on high, the breaker trips.
Because people don't use ranges/ovens that way in the real world, throwing everything to max all at once. Read NEC article 220 about how ranges are provisioned. There's a favorable "fudge factor" to allow for the fact that heating elements will be cycling on and off to maintain target temperature. NEC 220.55 note 1. (You go "I get 1-4 ranges/ovens for a big house... but why does that table allow for large numbers of ranges and ovens?" The answer is, residential hotels or senior independent living which might have many units on the same meter.)
 

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I just wonder how GE can get away with advertising this on a 40amp breaker if it needs a larger wire.
It doesn't need larger wire...unless you turn everything on at once. If they required a 70 amp circuit for that range, nobody would buy one, because virtually nobody has that size circuit run to their kitchen, just like almost no one has a main breaker in their house the same size as the sum of all the breaker capacities in the panel. If the POCO required that, all their customers would be mad as hell they had to spend thousands to upgrade their service. Just like you would be mad as hell if you had to pay for thousands to upgrade the circuit to your range to 70 amps. As it is, you're happy as a clam to have the service upgraded, because you don't have to foot the bill.

And btw, yes, it's going to be a PITA to pull new wire for that 50 amp circuit.
 

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Definitely not on my dime, I just wonder how GE can get away with advertising this on a 40amp breaker if it needs a larger wire.

I also confirmed with the inspector that they did both ovens to 350 and had the burners on high. Unlikely to be like that, but maybe on Thanksgiving?

How difficult is it to re-run this wire? The entire attic is already insulated, they drilled a hole in the 2x4 and ran the wire down the wall (also insulated) so I’m wondering how difficult this is going to be.

Here’s a bad image, but the wire is running here before it’s insulated…
You would probably be surprised at all the things in your life that aren't designed to function at their implied full performance specs.

Check the speedometer on your car.. it probably goes north of 120mph, in a country with 75 mph speed limits.

I'm guessing you haven't paid your builder the full amount yet? Because if he had all the money, I'd bet he'd tell you to go stick it and walk away.
And if you have paid him and he's STILL upgrading your electric for free, then you should brag about him everywhere because that's one good builder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
You would probably be surprised at all the things in your life that aren't designed to function at their implied full performance specs.

Check the speedometer on your car.. it probably goes north of 120mph, in a country with 75 mph speed limits.

I'm guessing you haven't paid your builder the full amount yet? Because if he had all the money, I'd bet he'd tell you to go stick it and walk away.
And if you have paid him and he's STILL upgrading your electric for free, then you should brag about him everywhere because that's one good builder.
To confirm, both ovens were at 350 and all the burners were on. I didn’t ask the builder to replace the wire, they recommended it.

And for Thanksgiving, I could easily see us using both ovens and a few burners. That shouldn’t be happening unless GE fudged the numbers.
 

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I think it's all working as designed, even if it's a little surprising. Turning everything on at the same time is not typical usage, and it would be unreasonable to size the circuit based on that (or force the oven to heat up slower).

The breaker trip in this case is just a "nuisance trip" - there's no crisis averted, since the oven would not draw max power long enough to overheat the wires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
It doesn't need larger wire...unless you turn everything on at once. If they required a 70 amp circuit for that range, nobody would buy one, because virtually nobody has that size circuit run to their kitchen, just like almost no one has a main breaker in their house the same size as the sum of all the breaker capacities in the panel. If the POCO required that, all their customers would be mad as hell they had to spend thousands to upgrade their service. Just like you would be mad as hell if you had to pay for thousands to upgrade the circuit to your range to 70 amps. As it is, you're happy as a clam to have the service upgraded, because you don't have to foot the bill.

And btw, yes, it's going to be a PITA to pull new wire for that 50 amp circuit.
I don’t want the new wire…but the ovens were both in 350 and the burners were on. I could see us using those on Thanksgiving.

My question is how can they advertise it works on 40amps (#8 wire) when it really needs 50amps (#6 wire).

I didn’t ask for the new wire, the electrician recommended it after testing it.
 

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I have never seen a double oven that uses a range cord. I find this info hilarious since they don't make a receptacle or a cord at 50 amps.

Upgrading won't hurt but IMO not necessary

A range cord rated at 40 amps with 125/250 minimum volt range is required. A 50 amp range
is not recommended but if used it should be marked for use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
I have never seen a double oven that uses a range cord. I find this info hilarious since they don't make a receptacle or a cord at 50 amps.

Upgrading won't hurt but IMO not necessary
Here’s the deal, I don’t want to upgrade it. Total pain in the ass and causing potential damage trying to run new wires.

But, on Thanksgiving and Christmas I could see us using both ovens and the burners on top…I’d hate to not be able to cook a big meal with family over because my breaker is going to trip.

Is there any way this can run on 40amps with an 8 wire? Or is the 6 wire and 50amps needed?

And what do you find funny with that statement by GE? I’m just wondering if they’re fudging the numbers.

I called three people I know with double ovens and they all have 50amp breakers.
 

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And for Thanksgiving, I could easily see us using both ovens and a few burners. That shouldn’t be happening unless GE fudged the numbers.
Well obviously, you should be able to use all the burners at the same time.

I'm just saying you created an artificial situation by starting all the burners and the ovens at the same time.

What you may not understand is they aren't rheostats. If you set the oven to 350 it doesn't run the element at 47% power. It runs the element balls out at 100% power until it reaches target temperature, then it shuts the element off altogether. Then on, then off, etc. as needed to sustain.

Same with the burners. Wide open until target, than on/off as needed, giving a duty cycle. But the "target" happens much quicker with burners. All this on/off cycling happens independently from one another.

Also, breakers don't trip exactly at 40.00 amps. They have an "inverse time" trip curve, where they tolerate small overload for a long time and a larger overload for a shorter time.

So you can see, it's really not a problem in normal cooking, when all elements are randomly cycling on and off. Even if by happenstance a bunch are on at once and pulling 50-60A, that won't be for long enough to bother the breaker. That's the design.

By switching all elements on from cold at once, you created the worst case scenario of them all having to run for an extended time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Well obviously, you should be able to use all the burners at the same time.

I'm just saying you created an artificial situation by starting all the burners and the ovens at the same time.

What you may not understand is they aren't rheostats. If you set the oven to 350 it doesn't run the element at 47% power. It runs the element balls out at 100% power until it reaches target temperature, then it shuts the element off altogether. Then on, then off, etc. as needed to sustain.

Same with the burners. Wide open until target, than on/off as needed, giving a duty cycle. But the "target" happens much quicker with burners. All this on/off cycling happens independently from one another.

Also, breakers don't trip exactly at 40.00 amps. They have an "inverse time" trip curve, where they tolerate small overload for a long time and a larger overload for a shorter time.

So you can see, it's really not a problem in normal cooking, when all elements are randomly cycling on and off. Even if by happenstance a bunch are on at once and pulling 50-60A, that won't be for long enough to bother the breaker. That's the design.

By switching all elements on from cold at once, you created the worst case scenario of them all having to run for an extended time.
I called three family members with double ovens and they all have 50amp breakers.

I understand there is cycling going on, so it shouldn’t happen where everything is on at once causing issues, but the inspector stated that most homes have 50amp for the range and it doesn’t normally trip unless it’s underpowered. It ran for about 5 minutes until it tripped…but the builder said “the wire is going to be replaced due to the specs ratings. My electricians told me they where concerned with the numbers they got after inspecting the system under load.”

I’m not sure what that means, but it seems like the electricians didn’t like what they saw?
 

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Imo, if they are willing to change the wire and breaker then go for it . It does not state that 40 amps must be used because it states to check local codes for breaker size. Basically it would up to you if you want a larger setup for the what if scenario. We cannot guarantee that the 40 will hold in every scenario but generally it is not an issue. But why wait for the "what if" scenario and by then they wont come back and change the wire for nothing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Imo, if they are willing to change the wire and breaker then go for it . It does not state that 40 amps must be used because it states to check local codes for breaker size. Basically it would up to you if you want a larger setup for the what if scenario. We cannot guarantee that the 40 will hold in every scenario but generally it is not an issue. But why wait for the "what if" scenario and by then they wont come back and change the wire for nothing.
Can you do a 50amp breaker on a 8 gauge wire?
 

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Can you do a 50amp breaker on a 8 gauge wire?
I touched on this earlier. #8 NM cable may be code-limited to 40A but some wire/cable types may be rated higher. (Like 45A, or a bit more.) Investigate the cable's rating and the termination temperature ratings. Your local electricians hopefully know the NEC better than I do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I touched on this earlier. #8 NM cable may be code-limited to 40A but some wire/cable types may be rated higher. (Like 45A, or a bit more.) Investigate the cable's rating and the termination temperature ratings. Your local electricians hopefully know the NEC better than I do.
Ok.

First step is to see what the the amp clamp was showing as far as the draw goes.

If it’s 40amp or lower, it’s a bad breaker.

If it’s just under 45amp, we know that tripped the breaker…and depending on what the #8 wire is rated for, maybe it could handle a 45amp breaker.

But if it’s drawing like 60amp, wouldn’t that mean the appliance is broken?
 

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Ok.

First step is to see what the the amp clamp was showing as far as the draw goes.

If it’s 40amp or lower, it’s a bad breaker.

If it’s just under 45amp, we know that tripped the breaker…and depending on what the #8 wire is rated for, maybe it could handle a 45amp breaker.

But if it’s drawing like 60amp, wouldn’t that mean the appliance is broken?

Yes, if the unit is drawing less than 40 amps and it trips then it most likely a bad breaker but that is not the case.

Assuming the electrician used NM cable for the range, as most do, then it is rated 40 amps not 45 or 50. If it is run in an se cable or in conduit then you can get buy with a 50 amp breaker without changing the wire.

If the unit is drawing 60 amps does not mean the unit is broken.... If it is 16kw then it could draw 66 amps. If it is 14KW, as someone stated, then it can draw 58 amps.

I don't know why you are driving yourself crazy over this, just let them change it.
 
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