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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
What you've drawn is perfectly fine, but you could do without the middle box if it would be easier. Just wirenut the neutrals in the box behind the first receptacle.
i wasnt sure if i could fit it all in the same box as the receptacels, so i jsut planned on a third as a precaution. Closest 'electrical store' is lowes and thats 30+ min away, 1 way. So i didnt want to go back if i couldnt. So i picked up an extra box while there'

As far as GFCI protection, with MWBCs you need to use GFCI receptacles at each location where neutral is shared.
isnt everything sharing a neutral?
Thats a poor drawling of my initial thought. The top and bottom square are double gang boxes. Each of the two hots (red and black line) would go first to a gfci receptacle; Then off to a regular receptacle. - So both boxes would start with a gfci receptacle. Or do you mean all of them would have to be gfci? (i would think not.)
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As far as AFCI protection, you can't --- hold on. Maybe. Tell us which manufacturer your panel is.
the receptacles i have for this offer gfci protection, but not afci. Is that an issue for the basement?
My panel is squareD Homeline.
 

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isnt everything sharing a neutral?
The neutral downstream of a gfci is special. So is the hot for that matter. The hot and neutral connected to the "load" terminals on the GFCI must stay together and go to all the same devices from there on. So if you want everything to be GFCI protected you would have one gfci receptacle for the "black" leg, another one for the "red" leg. The "line" side neutral for both of those would connect to the shared neutral, but the load sides would stay separate after that. Make sense?
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
why does this gfci receptacle have 2 opening for each load/line's hot/neutral? I could understand it for the load side maybe. But it seems odd for the line side... That jsut had me wondering.
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You could have power in and power out cables with only gfi protection at the device. Nothing downstream would be protected.
 
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isnt everything sharing a neutral?
Thats a poor drawling of my initial thought. The top and bottom square are double gang boxes. Each of the two hots (red and black line) would go first to a gfci receptacle; Then off to a regular receptacle. - So both boxes would start with a gfci receptacle. Or do you mean all of them would have to be gfci? (i would think not.)
You have the right idea.

why does this gfci receptacle have 2 opening for each load/line's hot/neutral? I could understand it for the load side maybe. But it seems odd for the line side...

2 on the line side because sometimes you don't want to protect the downline.

2 on the load side so you can have a "tee" and support two forks of downline.
 

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You hook up Line only and test. Once it tests fully and passes, then you hook up any downlines you want to protect to the Load terminals.

"You'll thank me later"

You're under no obligation to protect the downline, doing that is just a money-saver at the expense of being very confusing when an outlet mysteriously goes dead. That is why every protected outlet is required to state "GFCI Protected" in a manner not hand-written. Adding "Reset at <location here>" is entirely your discretion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
That is why every protected outlet is required to state "GFCI Protected" in a manner not hand-written.
gotta love it when you remind me of what i wanted to ask you about in the first place...
i read that statement you made in another thread the other day. I wanted to ask you about that, but later forgot what it was i wanted to ask about. - I wasnt aware this was required. Iv never seen a house/been in a house that had such a label on any outlet before. Does this apply to all outlets with gfci protection? Or just ones in the basement? - If not hand written, and iv never seen a plate cover with that printed on it, im assuming it would be some kind of sticker then?
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
A lot of GFCI receptacles / breakers come with a book of stickers like this. In many places it's required, but I've never seen anyone use them.
If its required, ill use em. Probably a good idea anyway. I already have every outlet and light switch with a number sticker on them; which matches to what breaker controls that box. - I checked the three pack of gfci receptacles i jsut got. It had a total of two papers, each containing 6 stickers. So 12 stickers for 3 receptacles. Which sounds a little short imo.. But oh well. I opened the single box i had, and that had a single sheet of 6 stickers as well. So 6-1 and 12-3. I find the 6-1 a better ratio imo. If its required, then you dont want to come up short on something like that.

Do all downstream gfci outlets needs the stickers? Or jsut ones in the basement? Because i do have some regular outlets on the first floor that are on the same run as gfci outlets near the kitchen sink. I never thought to test if the regular ones were down stream protected or not. So ill have to do that. And there might be others like that. They had some goofy wiring done here.

I had one other question about it... but jsut that damn quickly i forgot what it was ><

Edit: I think i remember! Does the labeling rule apply to outlets protected by a gfci breaker instead of a gfci receptacle?
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
That is why every protected outlet is required to state "GFCI Protected" in a manner not hand-written.
bumping my labeling questions
Do all outlets on a gfci protected line have to be labeled?
All of them in the basement (even tho they are all required to have the gfci now.)?
What about gfci protected runs on the first floor (or above ground)
I have one run that starts in the basement then the first electricians, years back, added a line off them that ran to the first floor bedroom. Is that supposed to be labeled?
What about a basement run that protect by a gfci breaker instead of gfci receptacles? Do those outlets still need labeled?

Just trying to cover all my grounds here..
 

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i read that statement you made in another thread the other day. I wanted to ask you about that, but later forgot what it was i wanted to ask about. - I wasnt aware this was required. Iv never seen a house/been in a house that had such a label on any outlet before. Does this apply to all outlets with gfci protection? Or just ones in the basement? - If not hand written, and iv never seen a plate cover with that printed on it, im assuming it would be some kind of sticker then?
NEC 110.3(B) -> follow instructions
Instructions 8(C) -> label outlets.

You're right, no one does it. 90% never do it in the first place, and the other 10% use the supplied labels which are flimsy and turn to mush after being cleaned a couple times. Code only says the labels can't be handwritten, it does not say "must be ugly, flimsy or blue".

However, LOTS of people get pinched for not doing it one of several ways:

  • city inspector red-flags it (correctly)
  • HOME inspector red-flags lack of GFCI receptacles at locations where GFCI is required. People say "dumb inspector didn't realize GFCI is elsewhere" but inspector would not have red-flagged it if it was labeled. So inspector is correct.
  • Homeowner does not see GFCI receptacle. Homeowner installs GFCI receptacle. Then, far GFCI trips for some reason, local GFCI receptacle won't reset, homeowner can't figure out why not, and calls electrician. Pays $200 to get shown where the other reset is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
However, LOTS of people get pinched for not doing it one of several ways:
everyone from the home inspectors and loan compliance specialist ppl and who ever else was involved in me getting this place 5~ years back didnt seem to care about gfci at all. There was an outlet directly above the sink in the basement. The splash from the sink could reach that. No gfci.. no one ever mentioned it.

NEC 110.3(B) -> follow instructions
Instructions 8(C) -> label outlets.
Dumb question.. but where the hell can i find the text for nec code? Iv searched for it over the years. I could never find it. I find a million references to it, or sites talking about it, it sites quoting a passage... but i can never find that actually code book. Its like there trying to hide it from me...

Homeowner does not see GFCI receptacle. Homeowner installs GFCI receptacle. Then, far GFCI trips for some reason, local GFCI receptacle won't reset, homeowner can't figure out why not, and calls electrician. Pays $200 to get shown where the other reset is.
Continuing about that gfci outlet above the sink i jsut mentioned... As far as I know there was no gfci protection on breaker #13, which that outlet is on, when i got here. I never saw a gfci receptacle down there. The only ones i saw in the house was up at the kitchen sink on the first floor which is a different breaker (#6).
So i had the outlet above the sink swapped out for a gfci a year or three back. However, the wiring on breaker #13 is very goofy; many items having multiple wires coming off of them goign to something else; including the lights. So i have no idea where the start of that run is. Or if the start is even an outlet and not a light. - So i jsut got a gfci breaker for #13. Take care of the whole line at once that way and be done with it.
If i put a gfci breaker in for #13, should i remove the gfci receptacle above the sink which is on #13 line?? Or is it ok to have both on the same line?
 

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Dumb question.. but where the hell can i find the text for nec code? I
The NFPA is very protective of the NEC document and wants you to purchase a copy. But you can read it for free on their web site if you register (registering is free). But without purchasing, it is view-only. You can't search it, but you can jump to specific sections from the table of contents. You can't copy and paste text (but you can take a screen shot).

Follow this link, and click on "Free Access." If you want to view an edition prior to the 2020 version, scroll down the page a bit and select a different edition.
 

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(figured id make each hot have a double gang box with one gfic receptacle and one regular receptacle attached. Since apparently basement lines are supposed to be gfci protected now)
You cannot do this unless you have 2 gfci receptacles or a dp gfci breaker. Easier and cheaper to install 2 gfci receptacles.

Pigtail the white to both gfci receptacle. Do the same with the ground wire--bare or green whatever color it may be, and then connect one black to one gfci and the one red to the other gfci. Make sure all connections to the gfci receptacle are on the line side,,, It will be marked on the back of the receptacle
 

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Let me clarify. You can do what you are saying if you use just one hot conductor and cap off the other. Then you can have one gfci feed a regular receptacle otherwise you will need 2 gfci receptacles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
The NFPA is very protective of the NEC document and wants you to purchase a copy.
Person 1: Hey i got an idea!! You know how electrical problems can cause outages, fires, burn the house down, spread and burn multiple houses down, electrocute someone, or even kill someone?? Lets make the book to avoid all that stuff hidden away so ppl cant access it easily!!
Person 2: Brilliant! How did I not think of that!?
-_-

But you can read it for free on their web site if you register (registering is free). But without purchasing, it is view-only. You can't search it, but you can jump to specific sections from the table of contents. You can't copy and paste text (but you can take a screen shot).

Follow this link, and click on "Free Access." If you want to view an edition prior to the 2020 version, scroll down the page a bit and select a different edition.
I did see that page while searching for it before i posted that question. I stopped once i hit the 'sign in' page as an only option. Not a big fan of signing up for random things i find on a search. And wasnt sure it would work anyway. - At least now i know it does, thanks.

Let me clarify. You can do what you are saying if you use just one hot conductor and cap off the other. Then you can have one gfci feed a regular receptacle otherwise you will need 2 gfci receptacles.
Your close to what im thinking. I do indeed plan to have one hot going to a gfci outlet and then have that gfci feed a regular receptacle. .. Im jsut also planning on having the second hot do the same thing to a second gfci outlet and that one feeding a second regular receptacle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Bumping this question to the bottom so it doesnt get lost.

Can you have a line that has both a gfci receptacle/outlet AND a gfci breaker on it?
my breaker/line #13 has a gfci outlet above the sink. But that line has so many things attached to it. And each thing attached has 2-3-4-5 wires coming off of it sometimes.. some outlets, some lights, ect. I havnt tracked down what is actually first on this line (in the basement) to see if i can put a gfci at the start of the run.
So i bought a gfci breaker. Figured id put that in and be done with it. - But im not sure if i would need to take out the gfci receptacle once the gfci breaker was in. Or if its ok to leave both on.
 

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Bumping this question to the bottom so it doesnt get lost.

Can you have a line that has both a gfci receptacle/outlet AND a gfci breaker on it?
my breaker/line #13 has a gfci outlet above the sink. But that line has so many things attached to it. And each thing attached has 2-3-4-5 wires coming off of it sometimes.. some outlets, some lights, ect. I havnt tracked down what is actually first on this line (in the basement) to see if i can put a gfci at the start of the run.
So i bought a gfci breaker. Figured id put that in and be done with it. - But im not sure if i would need to take out the gfci receptacle once the gfci breaker was in. Or if its ok to leave both on.

It's redundant but it won't hurt to have a gfci breaker and a gfci receptacle on the same circuit...
 
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