[ratflinger]

I understand why contractors prefer to to do the whole install, it is afterall their livelihood. However, if one has a system and duct design provided by a HVAC engineer what is really wrong with the homeowner doing the physical labor himself and then calling for a professional to do the actual line hookups, testing and startup? This assumes there are no codes in the way of the HO actually performing said work. The grunt work is usually done by apprentices anyway right, and the usual HO should care more about a quality install than thew average apprentice.

Not putting anyone down, just looking for intelligent discussion.

 

[TarheelTerp]

However, if...
This assumes...
The grunt work is usually...

...just looking for intelligent discussion.

Turn the Q around: What do YOU do for a living?
How would your customers prefer to split up that job?
What sort of problems/conflicts can you anticipate showing up?

 

[beenthere]

How about providing those apprentices with work. So they keep coming to work. So they can become journeymen.

Next, meeting schedule. not just for your home, but to get to other jobs. if you end up taking a week longer, it throws off our schedules. If we come there and find something not done as it was suppose to be done, then we either still have to redo it. Or wait until you correct it.

If you want to DIY some stuff, have at it. But have everything ready and right when you call a contractor in.

 

[yuri]

I understand why contractors prefer to to do the whole install, it is afterall their livelihood. However, if one has a system and duct design provided by a HVAC engineer what is really wrong with the homeowner doing the physical labor himself and then calling for a professional to do the actual line hookups, testing and startup? This assumes there are no codes in the way of the HO actually performing said work. The grunt work is usually done by apprentices anyway right, and the usual HO should care more about a quality install than thew average apprentice. the average apprentice nowadays has to be skilled or we don't keep em long. they do the wiring and venting and the lead guy does the tin work so there are no unskilled grunts unless you call Joes heatem and cheatem. you really do get what you pay for unfortunately most people are so in denial they don't understand that. within 1 -2 yrs our apprentices get their gas license and within another they can become a lead guy.

Not putting anyone down, just looking for intelligent discussion.

also you got no warranty if you DIY other than a heck of a hard time getting parts and you will pay top dollar to get any reputable tech to handle any warranty issues.


.....

 

[Marty S.]

Nothing wrong with it so long as the customer knows what to do and that when they do the work they also assume the responsibility for any problems/warranty. Air flow has to be right for the system to work correctly.

Around here an apprentice is paired with a journeyman for 3 years after trade school,4 years without trade school. They can't work a job without a J-man there and can't take the test for the above amount of time.

 

[ben's plumbing]

I know you said no disrespect to anyone...but...listen to your question and read your own post....now look at the comments from a few professionals... yes our apprentices are very qualified to run a job after 1-2 yrs and they earn that respect for doing such so you are kinda disrespecting them.. i know that is not your intent.. but imo I would never share my work with the average ho because ...1- it takes food off the table of my hard working men..2- there is just a ton of problems ..that WILL come up ...no disrespect to you though...ben sr

 

[REP]

Here is something to think about.That install will be yours for 20 years.Durning all that time you will be paying for it to run effiently so you don't go broke.It also has nto make you comfortable for 20 years.Do you think you can do that?

 

[ratflinger]

Your points are well made and I am glad to see you gentlemen are using apprentices properly. Maybe I am jaded by the work in my current house and painting with too large a brush. We built in 99 using a GC & therefore had little control over the subs. My duct work looks like little skill was used (all flex), one condensate line was left unglued & resulted in damage sheetrock a couple of years later, and the tubing and wiring for both units was shoved down the same gap in the 2x4 frame resulting in a big bow in the sheetrock of the room. It left me thinking 'My goodness, even I could do better than this'. So here I am 14 years later planning another house, except this time I am the GC and I'm thinking 'why not'. Your points are well taken, so how do I find a good contractor? I've run a prelim Manual J using the HVAC Calc sw, I have my window & door spec, the wall specs, roof, etc., so I'm probably in the ballpark somewhere, but I'm having a real hard time getting any HVAC people to talk to me about a bid. I'd be happy for a reasonable answer within $5k just so I'd have an idea, but all I get is a pat on the back, thanks for stopping in & call us when the house is built and we'll come out to tell you what you need. Needless to say I'm kinda pissed off with the industry right now. Do I just keep calling contractors or what?

 

[ratflinger]

Here is something to think about.That install will be yours for 20 years.Durning all that time you will be paying for it to run effiently so you don't go broke.It also has nto make you comfortable for 20 years.Do you think you can do that?

Maybe not to your standards, but compared to my current install yeah. However your points are valid and I respect them.

 

[yuri]

most contractors do replacement work so to quote they need to see a completed house. new home builders do 99% piece work jobs with subs who generally stab each other in the back and low ball each other until nobody is REALLY making any money. nobody wants to waste their time speculating on what your house may look like and be when done and there are so many tire kickers out there why would they. a top salesman only closes about 25% of his leads so they are not intersted in tire kickers or people wanting rough quotes, to survive they have to make the sale now and they have quotas to meet or they get fired. c'est la vie.

 

[ratflinger]

most contractors do replacement work so to quote they need to see a completed house. new home builders do 99% piece work jobs with subs who generally stab each other in the back and low ball each other until nobody is REALLY making any money. nobody wants to waste their time speculating on what your house may look like and be when done and there are so many tire kickers out there why would they. a top salesman only closes about 25% of his leads so they are not intersted in tire kickers or people wanting rough quotes, to survive they have to make the sale now and they have quotas to meet or they get fired. c'est la vie.

I suppose so, but every other sub has given me a bid. I'm paying cash for the build, so I'm on more of a budget than someone who's getting a mortgage. I'm really uncomfortable going in to this not knowing if the AC will be $10k or $20k (example). If I budget $15k now & when the house is built the low bid is $25k then I guess I don't have AC or heat. An idea now allows me to work my budget. I'm not expecting a firm bid now, but I don't feel it's too much to ask to get a bid. I mean is business really that goods right now?

 

[ratflinger]

most contractors do replacement work so to quote they need to see a completed house. new home builders do 99% piece work jobs with subs who generally stab each other in the back and low ball each other until nobody is REALLY making any money. nobody wants to waste their time speculating on what your house may look like and be when done and there are so many tire kickers out there why would they. a top salesman only closes about 25% of his leads so they are not intersted in tire kickers or people wanting rough quotes, to survive they have to make the sale now and they have quotas to meet or they get fired. c'est la vie.

However this would explain the crappy work done in a new build vs a higher quality replacement. Which also unfortunately supports my points about why can't a DYIer do it better? Or at least some of it?

 

[hvac benny]

The common saying in the mechanical trades is "you touch it, you own it". It doesn't matter if the contractor caused the problem, if there is one they will be held responsible, or at least blamed and suffer a bad review because of it.

The problem here seems to be that you're expecting a custom install on spec prices. Not going to happen. The budget minded builder is exactly the reason I got out of this game: they expect rock bottom prices, and there are hacks out there that will give it to them, all to the detriment of the industry. You get what you pay for. There is no such thing as a getting a deal.

An economy that is in the tank, or in recovery, doesn't mean that you'll get a quality installer to do your job for peanuts: they'd rather stay home than cheapen their product.

As for an HO GCing his or her own build, I would run away from that project so fast an ACME anvil may narrowly miss hitting me. No offense to you, but dealing with experienced GCs can be bad enough.

 

[beenthere]

New construction(cookie cutter) is a cut throat business. Throw the lowest price at it they can and cut every corner possible to make a dollar.

Most of the existing construction contractors in your area may only size by sq ft, and not believe in Manual J. So you may have to make a lot of phone calls to find a good contractor. And it won't matter what our opinion is about you doing some of the work yourself is. Its what their opinion is that will count.

 

[ratflinger]

The common saying in the mechanical trades is "you touch it, you own it". It doesn't matter if the contractor caused the problem, if there is one they will be held responsible, or at least blamed and suffer a bad review because of it.

The problem here seems to be that you're expecting a custom install on spec prices. Not going to happen. The budget minded builder is exactly the reason I got out of this game: they expect rock bottom prices, and there are hacks out there that will give it to them, all to the detriment of the industry. You get what you pay for. There is no such thing as a getting a deal.

An economy that is in the tank, or in recovery, doesn't mean that you'll get a quality installer to do your job for peanuts: they'd rather stay home than cheapen their product.

As for an HO GCing his or her own build, I would run away from that project so fast an ACME anvil may narrowly miss hitting me. No offense to you, but dealing with experienced GCs can be bad enough.

No sir - never said I wanted a budget install, I said I had a budget and wanted to know prices of installs so I could budget. Every GC started somewhere and a lot of them don't seem any more qualified than I am. Why would a HO GC be anymore difficult than dealing with a HO that needed a total replacement is beyond me.

 

[yuri]

After 34 yrs in this biz I will tell you some unpleasant facts of life you won't like but here they are;

1) you may be a nice guy but most customers are liars/cheaters/low ballers and doing business is like gettin married. great at first but the honeymoon is soon over and then the real person comes out. same as buying a new car and having to take it in for its first problem and dealing with a miserable service manager.

2) I have done lots of work for renovators and GCs and never ever do jobs run on time and with all the trades climbing over each other it is impossible to run smoothly. then the GC/you wants us to keep coming back ( w/o paying our hourly rate ) to move or fix things that got damaged by other trades or did not fit etc so it is a never ending money losing hassle for us and it gets personal and ugly too. replacement jobs and nice empty new houses with no surpirises are the least stressful/hassle so that is what we prefer.

3) I have built several houses and honestly you cannot stay with a fixed budget. you need to have at least $10,000 for cost overuns/unseen expenses. the price of shingles fluctuates with the price of oil and so does the price of wood/sheetrock/concrete fluctuate with the economy/demand.

4) All of us seasoned contractors have had enough bad experiences that we are always prepared for/expect the worst and been turned down by lowballers so often that we don't really want to give out quotes for jobs we won't get anyway. The world of the Maytag man and honest business is LONG gone my friend.

 

[jagans]

As a person who was in the roofing business for many years, My experiences were as follows: I always went above and beyond when it came to doing anything, as I felt that my name was my bond.

1. Homeowners were generally very easy to deal with. There were rare exceptions but they were few.

2. General contractors sucked. They expected the lowest price, then they wanted you to be there when they snapped their fingers. You would dry in the building, completely finishing the roof, then wait for your money, and wait for your money, and wait for your money.

3. Contractors that worked above the finished roof were animals. They had no regard for the integrity of the roof. HVAC contractors were without question to worst. They left shards of sharp sheet metal, tapping screws, old filters, compressors with oil leaking out, fans, parts, etc etc etc lying on, and ruining the roof membrane.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the term "Professional" only means that you make your living performing a service.

How you perform that service has a great deal to do with how you are raised. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH YOU ARE BEING PAID.

Those of us who only know one way to do things, meaning the right way, find our reward in a job well done, and the remuneration for that job is important, but secondary.

I personally find the fact that a person cannot buy this or that HVAC part to be an infringement on my rights as an American, and unconstitutional Following that logic, why dont we just say:

1. Only licensed electricians can buy electrical parts.
2. Only licensed carpenters can buy wood.
3. Only licensed auto mechanics can buy auto parts.
4. Only licensed plumbers can buy pipe, toilets, or sinks.
5. Only licensed roofers can buy roofing materials.
6. Only licensed Masons can buy concrete or CMU

Hell, why dont we just start flying the hammer and sickle and throw out the stars and stripes, while we are at it?

I find the so called legal arguments about protecting someone from themselves by restricting sales to the public to be the biggest crock of crap, and the worst infringement on personal freedoms since the word Homeland Security and the Patriot Act were coined.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" BF

Go ahead and tell Ben Franklin he cant buy the furnace he wants and see what he would have said.

 

[techpappy]

THANKS JAGANS..but I would like to add just one more thing to your comments...as long as the individual (s) take responsibility for their actions

which imo the OP seems ready to do..hopefully

btw I was the GC on my last home (2400sf) and everything went very well..completed in 12 weeks..went over budget 10%

 

[Ocelaris]

I'll be brief, a lot of good comments made, particularly Jagan's comment about how people were raised affecting their work. You don't necessarily get what you pay for, and inexperienced GCs (homeowners are sometimes in that category) are scary! I am looking at doing central air, and while getting quotes the owner noticed I was doing all the electrical, plumbing, and renovation work myself and I wanted to save a few bucks. He offered a DIY package, basically he designs the system and sells me the parts, I install, and he sweats, vacuums, fills and checks the work. I would see if that's an option with any of the contractors if you're serious.

But like someone else said, you basically own the system, and should be clear that you're going to be responsible for knowing everything even if you're not doing the last parts. I would suggest having a good understanding of a/c systems, reading a text book and doing a lot of research. Nobody is going to do a better job than you, for the price you want to pay. These internet forums provide a "best case" scenario on how jobs are supposed to be done, but most contractors in the real world are going to provide a reasonable job, but probably not as good as you are willing to do yourself.

 

[ratflinger]

After 34 yrs in this biz I will tell you some unpleasant facts of life you won't like but here they are;

1) you may be a nice guy but most customers are liars/cheaters/low ballers and doing business is like gettin married. great at first but the honeymoon is soon over and then the real person comes out. same as buying a new car and having to take it in for its first problem and dealing with a miserable service manager.

2) I have done lots of work for renovators and GCs and never ever do jobs run on time and with all the trades climbing over each other it is impossible to run smoothly. then the GC/you wants us to keep coming back ( w/o paying our hourly rate ) to move or fix things that got damaged by other trades or did not fit etc so it is a never ending money losing hassle for us and it gets personal and ugly too. replacement jobs and nice empty new houses with no surpirises are the least stressful/hassle so that is what we prefer.

3) I have built several houses and honestly you cannot stay with a fixed budget. you need to have at least $10,000 for cost overuns/unseen expenses. the price of shingles fluctuates with the price of oil and so does the price of wood/sheetrock/concrete fluctuate with the economy/demand.

4) All of us seasoned contractors have had enough bad experiences that we are always prepared for/expect the worst and been turned down by lowballers so often that we don't really want to give out quotes for jobs we won't get anyway. The world of the Maytag man and honest business is LONG gone my friend.

Yuri, your comments are well spoken, I will have money for overruns, there always are some, but it's darn hard to figure what the margin should be when no is willing to give a good, fair estimate.

Others here have said that the average HO might well make a mess of things, then turned around and complained about the shoddy work done by cheap contractors trying to make up for their cheap bid. This is what I want to get away from, Why should I expect a lowball bidder to do a good job when I'd offer fair money for the work I'd have a contractor do? I certainly could follow the HVAC engineers plan and hang ducting and such, unbox & set the air handler and compressor and then pay a fair and reasonable price for the technical work? Unfortunately it seems I am trying to take money out of the mouths of the contractors family here, when all I'm looking for is a good job.