[Big Cat]

We have a home built in mid 2015. I always had concerns about the way the drain was installed for the kitchen but I don't claim to be a plumber but things I always thought I knew about drains were you make it as direct as possible and as short as possible. All the homes we looked at before we chose our builder had Loop venting for all the corner kitchen including the one we chose. Have not seen their plumber install anything else but loop vented kitchen sinks. The builder rep was in the home as it was being built and my wife asked him about the plumbing and why it was coming out in the floor and not through the 1/2 wall that we had seen in every home up to that point that had a corner sink. All he said to her was "that's the way they do them". We ended up with a AAV under our sink
In Nov. 2019 our sink stopped up. We had to have a plumber come in and snake it. Now mind you we put potato peelings in out disposal maybe twice a year 2-3 medium size each time for real mashed potatoes. Only time I get them after I had 3 stents put in 2010 and my now retired RN wife who carefully watches what I eat so she can torment me a little longer I guess:vs_laugh: I also use a lot of paper towel which bothers my wife because I wipe out the pans to get all the Olive oil off before they're washed.
Back to my sink. When I contacted the builder, I tried being truthful about the sink and that I was out $185 because of the drain issue. All he said was "see that green sticker, it passed inspection and you shouldn't throw potato peeling down your drain." My last home was built in 1977 but we moved into it in 2002 and I really didn't take any care of that drain until 2010 and less things went down it and never had a problem. I'm trying to figure the sloop that's in my system because I think there's been a blockage building up over time. Keep in mind the drains you're seeing are under a finished ceiling and the light housing and RO system weren't put in until 2017.
I would appreciate it if you know how to figure the sloop and I know these numbers are not exactly right but they are close.
Line A- This is under my cabinet floor and the circle is where the 90 enters my cabinet. That 90 sits on a 1 1/2" board and on the other end with about 2/3 of the coupling shoulder showing as it enters the osb. Its 12" long
Line B- The 90 there looks like its shoulder is against the osb and is around 18" long.
Line C- is around 2' long.
Lind D- I'm calling it 16'only because I can't estimate the bump out that was made to catch another vent that go up through a wall and ties into a washer vent then out the roof. The total run is probably longer than 16'. You will see that run in the second picture. Some measurement were determined based on the lighting location.
The joist are 9 1/4" in depth and about 18" before it enters the Larger drain by the wall I drill 2 holes. 1 to use a endoscopy and the second to use a stiff wire to try and get a measurement from right under the drain line. I got a measurement of 3" after subtracting 1/2" for the sheet rock. I know code calls for 1/4" sloop per foot of run but not sure what to use because of the line under the cabinet floor. I come up with 20 1/2 feet which would make it 5 1/8" sloop but where does my measurements start. Do I have to (Pipe A) add in the 1 1/2" the first 90 sits on along with OSB thickness to the Joist depth. This is where it gets confusing to me. If I run a straight 20' drain and 10' I run it at 3" total sloop and to next 10' at 2" total that would equal 5" total sloop but would that be right for the drain sloop? Sorry for the long ramblings and thanks and I appreciate any input anyone one has to give:vs_cool:. Sorry the second picture is 90 degrees off and I can't change it. The third smaller picture is one I tried to blow up and show how it enters the other drain

 

[hkstroud]

The response you got from the builder and your wife got from the builder's rep is just their way of saying "You are so dumb that I can tell you anything and you will go away".
Forget the short stuff. Put a 4 foot level on the bottom edge of that joist the piping is attached to. It should and probably will, show you that the joist is level.

Assuming that the piping is a drain pipe and not a vent pipe . From your description it sounds like a drain pipe.


The pipe appears (repeat appears) to be parallel to both the top edge and the bottom edge of the joist. It should drop down between 1/8" to 1/4" per foot. If the total length of the pipe is 16 feet, the end connecting to the other drain should be 2" to 4" below the end connecting to the short stuff.


If the pipe does not have the proper slope, that can easily be corrected. Either by you or a plumber.

 

[Big Cat]

Thanks for the reply HKSTROUD....I know code calls for a minimum 1/4" drop per foot Maybe I don't understand plumbing as most people. I didn't like not having a vented Loop like every home I saw before deciding with this builder, but the thing that l really had a hard time with was the crossing through 2 joist before coming back between the OSB and the cabinet floor. He used 5 elbows to where I could see 2 would have worked. I was told that is minimum code with what he did under the sink area alone but it still makes no sense to me.It would be easy to do like you said but its all under finished Sheetrock as of 2017. There's a problem with the sloop, otherwise a 4 1/2 year old drain that was nursed the whole time because I had reservations about how it was done. I just need to have a ideal about the sloop issue before I pay to have the sheet rock removed in that area. If I can prove they screwed up, I can go after them for 1-Fraud, for telling me that's how they do it, when they know its not. 2 construction defects law for putting me off knowing I had a problem with a drain they had installed.The 1 pipe above the OSB is the one that is throwing me. I just need someone to explain how sloop is figured other then just the total drain run length. Again Thanks for your input.

 

[TheEplumber]

Butt your tape mesure against the bottom side of the OSB floor and measure to the center of the pipe- remember that number. Now move upstream or downstream 12" and repeat measurement process. The 2 measurements should be 1/4" different. The pipe on top the floor has no bearing on the lower pipes grade except to determine the elevation of the upper end.

On the legality of it all. He has his sign off. The inspector is not liable and I doubt anyone else is liable 5 yrs later. It is probably out of warranty....

Do you know exactly where the backup occurred in the line? Under the cabinet or further down

 

[TheEplumber]

Can I see a picture inside the cabinet base?
Is there a framed wall behind the cabinet?

Think about this from a plumbers standpoint-
Do you realize the fitting make-up dimensions required to build a proper island loop vent under the floor? After the fittings are assembled, that whole run of 2" pipe would be below the joists.
Not to mention running the foot vent to another partition. How would the foot vent line up to the joists- could they be drilled without compromising the floor system if the vent ran perpendicular to the joists? And the foot vent would also require grade.
To be honest. I have not seen an island loop vent in a long time, AAV's are being accepted by code folks more and more..... JMO

 

[Big Cat]

Thanks TheEPlumber. I know when they snaked it, they made a comment about all the turns they went trough but I believe it was more in the straight section that's in the other pictures. I have a picture of a loop that was put in a home with the same floor plan. At the end of the 1/2 wall is a walk through and then a 9"x15" like column attached to a wall that runs between the kitchen and dining room. I believe that 9"x12"is where the vent is finally ran up through the attic then out the roof. Just trying to figure out what steps I can take to fix it. Built the home for our retirement to enjoy but its been a mess. Even dealing with Allura cement board siding that started crack just after 2 years. Soon as we settle the siding issue we will probably sell but want to make sure the plumbing is right even if I have to have the ceiling removed to fix it. Don't like leaving people problems with a home I know about. I added a picture of ours also where it comes through the floor when it was being built and a picture of the walls I was talking about. Sorry that one is upside down and I tried to correct it.. Anyway, thanks for your input and really appreciate it.

 

[Big Cat]

I'm slowly getting an ideal of how much sloop I have. I know I have over 20' of drain line. Its more because I can't see under the sheet rock to figure where the longest line has the offset to catch a vent from inside the wall above. But I'm just using a straight line # just to give me an ideal.
I have a 9 1/4" joist. I drilled 2 holes, one to see the bottom of the line with a endoscope and one to use a heavy straight wire to measure to the bottom of the drain line under the sheet rock. I feel I got a good measurement of 3 1/2" and after subtracting 1/2" for sheet rock I'm at 3". That measurement is about 1' from where the drain connects to the 4" drain at the wall. That tells me I'm 6 1/4" top of joist to bottom of drain at that point. Now I have the starting point to where the drain drops out from the OSB with a 90 degree elbow. I don't have the exact number because I can't measure the floor to the bottom of that line but I do know the OD of the schedule 40 pvc to be 2 3/8. So subtracting the 2 3/8" from the 6 1/4" tells me I have less then 3 7/8" sloop for a 20'+ long drain line. It may be more in a 3" sloop area if the 90 elbow drops it 7/8" more from the OSB. Am I looking at this right? I figure I should have 5+"

 

[Ghostmaker]

OK if you got 20 foot of drain you need 5 inches pitch. I don't see anywhere near that from your pictures. go rent a camera and see if you have standing water in that drain.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PQHG5HQ?tag=duckduckgo-ffsb-20&linkCode=osi&th=1


Once you find the standing water you know where to open it up.
Also look for grease and other food in the drain causing the blockage.
Good luck.


The Air admittance valve is not causing an issue it's all about pitch.

 

[Big Cat]

Thanks for the Reply Ghostmaker.. I have a 33' endoscope that I used to find how close the drain is to the bottom of the joist before it starts the drop into the 4' drain. My problem with it is my builder and their regular plumber after sending them those same pictures you're seeing including a good blow up of the area before it goes into the bulkhead that houses the 4" drain. They said the photo shows them nothing. In my email I told them the drain should look like its just above the 2x4 in the framing of that bulkhead. I'm just sorry when I finished the framing of the basement I didn't look closer at the drain system. I took pictures of it during my framing because I was concerned about where he used 5-90s to get to that entry into the cabinet, where as he could have made it in 2. Never thought once about the sloop being where it is. I might have to tear out that section under the whole drain area but that might be my only option. I know the drain was not used enough to clog it and there should be no grease in that line. My wife gives me hell for using paper towels wiping out the oil in the pans before they are washed. As far as potato peelings, we may do 2-3 potatoes twice a year for real mashed potatoes. I had 3 stents in 2010 and my RN wife sat in with me while a 300lb dietitian told me what I could and could not eat. I figure my wife wants to keep me around as long as she can keep me miserable. :vs_laugh: … Thanks for your help.... Also Ghostmaker.. I think you responded 4-5 years ago about a issue I put in here about a hot water expansion tank that was installed laying on its side on top of a hot water heater being held in place by the 3/4" cpvc. The plumber that did that is the same one that did the plumbing in my house. The builder did make him go back and secure the tank.

 

[jmon]

Big cat, don't waste anymore time with them, they have obliviously written you off. You aren't going to get anywhere with them, it passed inspection with that green sticker.

Just cut it out and redo it yourself with the proper slope and fittings as ghost and eplumber mentioned. Pvc is cheap. Just a suggestion.

 

[Ghostmaker]

Run that scope through the drain itself. We need to see if it is full of water.


I use Bioclean on my KS drains. Haven't had a reclog in many years. Mine was garbage disposal grindings not pitch.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001N09KN4?tag=duckduckgo-ffsb-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1


Teach the house hold Garbage can first. Disposal not heavy stuff.



Run that scope in the drain and see if standing water is in it.
I would also record it if your home is under warranty.