[DaveBoston]

Hi. I am installing new service for a large one family house that may eventually have an add on townhouse. I wil have the help of an electrician but he says no to a lot of my ideas so I am looking for some extra creative thinking that I can bring to him. Hopefully I came to the right place.

It is currently a large house that will have every eltric gadget possible such as 50amp induction cooktop, 50 amp double oven, two large electric clothes dryers, two dishwashers, two 2.5 ton ac compressors, multiple large screen tv's and electronic gadgets everywhere. The plan is for 200 amps to cover this safely (maybe could get by on 150? but not 100).
The goal is to then build a 1500sf townhouse in a few years as an addition that would be sold to another family. I assume the townhouse would need at least 100amps.
So I want to install service on the big house now that will minimize my future cost of conversion. The trick is that we can't do anything explicit such as having a second meter as that would require a two family permit that is years away.

The plan is for the electricity to come into the house on the side of the garage but have the main 200amo breaker in the basement (much better for running all the interior lines) and a 100amp sub panel on the second floor. Obviously this will either require an outside cutoff switch or an extra panel in the garage. Current plan is for outside shutoff.

Some ideas I had that the electrician shot down but maybe there is another way to skin:
- install thicker wire between the weatherhead and meter so we won't have to redo that in the future. He seems to think that will bring too much energy to the meter or main breaker but I didnt think electricity worked that way.
- install a double size Pvc backer board for the meters so we won't need to cut the finer cement siding in the future. He is uncomfortable since he doesn't know the future size of the two meters but I assume we can just oversize.
- actually go with a 300amp meter and main breaker in the garage that would simply feed the 200amp panel in the basement that would then feed the second floor subpanel and another 100 amp subpanel connected to the garage box with some extra slack that would feed another 100 amp subpanel on the other side of the basement that would simply sit there with a single outlet. That panel would then get moved to the townhouse one day and reconnected to an outdoor cutoff switch on the new meter. This would save cutting through a lot of plaster in the future. backup plan that I haven't discussed with him is to run a lot of empty condoit between the meter area and the basement.

Ideas?

 

[J. V.]

I would call/find another electrician. You are correct. Electricity does not work like that!

This is not a DIY project by any stretch. This will require a professional!

 

[Oso954]

In my area, whether you sell or rent that townhouse, it has to be metered separately.

Since it is "years away" (which sometimes means never) I would do nothing at this time. Over sizing the house service or any other money you spend now is liable to be wasted.

Code changes or utility rule changes could make even the best plan obsolete before you get to implementing it.

 

[DaveBoston]

Sorry, to be clear this is not a diy project, it is just a highly involved owner 2nd guessing the electrician whom may be saying things for expediency instead of accuracy.

Yes, code could certainly change and the project may never happen so I don't want to spend too much now to prep but if something is cheap now.... Maybe just some extra 2" Pvc conduit before the drywall goes up (is 4awg wire flexible enough to pull through a conduit with bends?)?

Is 250kcmil copper that much more than 2/0 copper that we shouldn't install it from the weatherhead to the meter now?

 

[MrElectricianTV]

Hi. I am installing new service for a large one family house that may eventually have an add on townhouse. I wil have the help of an electrician but he says no to a lot of my ideas so I am looking for some extra creative thinking that I can bring to him. Hopefully I came to the right place.

It is currently a large house that will have every eltric gadget possible such as 50amp induction cooktop, 50 amp double oven, two large electric clothes dryers, two dishwashers, two 2.5 ton ac compressors, multiple large screen tv's and electronic gadgets everywhere. The plan is for 200 amps to cover this safely (maybe could get by on 150? but not 100).
The goal is to then build a 1500sf townhouse in a few years as an addition that would be sold to another family. I assume the townhouse would need at least 100amps.
So I want to install service on the big house now that will minimize my future cost of conversion. The trick is that we can't do anything explicit such as having a second meter as that would require a two family permit that is years away.

The plan is for the electricity to come into the house on the side of the garage but have the main 200amo breaker in the basement (much better for running all the interior lines) and a 100amp sub panel on the second floor. Obviously this will either require an outside cutoff switch or an extra panel in the garage. Current plan is for outside shutoff.

Some ideas I had that the electrician shot down but maybe there is another way to skin:
- install thicker wire between the weatherhead and meter so we won't have to redo that in the future. He seems to think that will bring too much energy to the meter or main breaker but I didnt think electricity worked that way.
- install a double size Pvc backer board for the meters so we won't need to cut the finer cement siding in the future. He is uncomfortable since he doesn't know the future size of the two meters but I assume we can just oversize.
- actually go with a 300amp meter and main breaker in the garage that would simply feed the 200amp panel in the basement that would then feed the second floor subpanel and another 100 amp subpanel connected to the garage box with some extra slack that would feed another 100 amp subpanel on the other side of the basement that would simply sit there with a single outlet. That panel would then get moved to the townhouse one day and reconnected to an outdoor cutoff switch on the new meter. This would save cutting through a lot of plaster in the future. backup plan that I haven't discussed with him is to run a lot of empty condoit between the meter area and the basement.

Ideas?

I would install a 300 amp service with at least a two gang meter socket. Install a 150 amp outdoor main breaker for each meter. If this is going to be a two family you may need a house panel to take care of common things such as outdoor lights and smoke alarms. Best to check with your town zoning board and building department. It is not unusual in my area to have spare meter sockets installed. The power company just blanks them up until they are needed.

 

[Jim Port]

I am not sure I would want a meter for another house on mine or if the power company would even allow it.

I also agree that the "electrician" was showing a serious lack of knowledge. The size of the wires does not determine the load. The load determines the size of the wires. Larger loads = larger wires.

 

[DaveBoston]

I am not sure I would want a meter for another house on mine or if the power company would even allow it.

I also agree that the "electrician" was showing a serious lack of knowledge. The size of the wires does not determine the load. The load determines the size of the wires. Larger loads = larger wires.

Jim,
Thanks. It is also possible that I misunderstood him. Maybe it wasn't a question of the thick wire "sending" too much amperage but the thick wire not fitting into the 200amp meter socket or not fitting the connections inside the socket. I quickly looked up specs on a $35 200amp meter socket and it mentioned a maximum of 250mcm on an aluminum bus. Though there is a $50 200amp socket that will take 350mcm on an aluminum bus so maybe he just wanted to save the $15. Or am I out in left field here.

As to meter for another house, I wasn't thinking that way. Once the addition was built, I would buy the extra meter socket(s) and split the service wire into the 3 meters. I just was thinking that I wouldn't have to re-run the wire between the service drop and the meter area the next time. Though I guess that is a relatively cheap part of the deal and not worth worrying about now.

 

[Jim Port]

With that plan the first house would see all the usage of the second house also.

 

[DaveBoston]

With that plan the first house would see all the usage of the second house also.

?

Electrician's plan:
Run 200 Amp wire (e.g., 250MCM AL) to a 200Amp meter socket on a 1 meter/1 cuttoff PVC board then to an outside cutoff switch then from the cutoff switch using 200Amp wire about 35 feet through the studs and joists of the garage and 15 feet through the ceiling joists of the basement to a 200Amp primary breaker.

My thought
Run 300Amp wire (e.g., 350MCM AL) or whatever to a 200Amp meter socket (slightly better one with big enough terminals to handle the bigger wire) on a three meter/three cutoff switch pvc board then to a single outside cutoff switch then run 200Amp wirefrom the cutoff switch about 35 feet through the studs in 2" PVC (with a second piece of PVC to its side with a string or 100Amp unconnected wire if allowed running through it) and joists of the garage into the basement.

In the future, either way, there would be the 2-3 meters on the outside of the building under the weatherhead with 3 cutoff switches. The original meter would stay connected as is on the load side. A new 100Amp meter would go in the next socket and be split off of the wire from the weatherhead (a brand new wire in the electrician's plan or from the original service wire in mine) and then connect to 100Amp wire that would either require cutting into the drywall in the garage in the electrician's plan or get pulled through the PVC in mine to get to the basement. Once in the basement it would be sent through the open joists to wherever we end up putting the apartment's main 100amp panel. If an addition, it would go all the way through the basement to the other side and through that sill into the new basement. If we just convert the basement to a 1 bedroom, then probably not far from the original box but on the other side of the dividing wall (or, more likely, if it was just a 700sf 1 bedroom, I would keep it as a rental and include electric and install efficient and basic appliances and assume that the 200amps would handle it all. Maybe give them a small subpanel just for convenience).

In no case was I planning on putting the meters in series.

 

[lance80]

Why don't you just use a 2, 3 or 4 gang meter pack and save yourself all this hand wringing. The Siemens WP unipack or power mod would work just fine. Or any other brand, whatever is common in your area.

It gives you a good spot to land your larger incoming, and you can put whatever size breaker you want in each meter to feed panel.


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[DaveBoston]

Would love to. I am just concerned that the inspector will say that I'm not allowed to have anything that looks to be multifamily before getting the approval to convert to a two family. It would also serve as the starting pistol for my neighbors to start planning roadblocks for me.

 

[lance80]

Every area is different, but around here the electrical inspector would have no recourse to hold up a multifamily service for being out of place. All he is concerned about is that what was installed follows local safety code.

If anyone really has a problem with it, you should be able to say you want your garage or shop metered separately in the future, hence the multi gang socket.

That all being said, if you are trying to slum up a nice area by putting a ghetto addition on and renting it to crackheads, then ignore everything I said.


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