[DoomsDave]

Went to a funeral and one of the fellow-mourners was a retired contractor, who listened to me babbling on about making over my house (getting work done, like Phyllis Diller or Simon Cowell). In particular, plumbing had to be redone, changing galvanized to copper . . . the guy asked me if I was using PEX piping.

Never heard of it! Reading about it, sounds like it might be a nice alternative to the copper I've been using up to now. (Got about 50 feet of thick-wall waiting for installation.)

So, give it to me, what's good, bad, etc., about PEX v. copper?

It would seem you could use both where you'd already used one.

 

[ktownskier]

@DoomsDave,

Seriously? Have you been living under the proverbial rock?

Okay, okay, enough joking aside.

Copper is of course probably the best way to go, but it is expensive, requires a certain level of skill, and a certain level of knowledge of how to configure things.

PEX on the other had is:
Fun to install
Flexible.
Much easier to configure.
No open flames.
Can run differently than copper (no need to run branch tree)
Different options to make connections. (Crimp, Expander, PTC, etc)
Can have colors indicating temp of water (Blue for cold, Red for hot).
Inherently more heat retentive.

 

[DoomsDave]

@DoomsDave,

Seriously? Have you been living under the proverbial rock?

Okay, okay, enough joking aside.

Copper is of course probably the best way to go, but it is expensive, requires a certain level of skill, and a certain level of knowledge of how to configure things.

PEX on the other had is:
Fun to install
Flexible.
Much easier to configure.
No open flames.
Can run differently than copper (no need to run branch tree)
Different options to make connections. (Crimp, Expander, PTC, etc)
Can have colors indicating temp of water (Blue for cold, Red for hot).
Inherently more heat retentive.

TOUCHE!

As I told you, after a certain birthday, the rocks just move on in, you don't have to climb under one, they climb on top of you! (Maybe that's the reason for hearing impairment; all those rocks?)

I suspect that my expression of befuddlement at my co-mourner's suggestion must have been priceless, though he was far to gracious to say anything. I really had no clue whatsoever. Just like that first time seeing a low-rider bouncing in Corpus Christi . . . .

My handy helper has used copper, maybe he has thoughts, but might have to re-train him based on what you said.

I assume I pick up with PEX where you leave off with copper?

 

[snic]

No open flames.

There are press fittings for copper, which don't require soldering. Apparently they are becoming very popular. My plumber uses them. As I understand it, the upfront costs are high (you have to buy a set of press tools) but it saves a huge amount of time to not have to solder, and the fittings themselves are cheap.

Of course, for amateurs like me with one-off projects, there's always Sharkbite fittings. Which, by the way, work great with PEX. The big drawback is that they're expensive. (Cue perennial debate over whether they leak. I'm pretty sure that if installed right, they don't leak any more often than correctly installed press fittings or soldered fittings.)

 

[ktownskier]

TOUCHE!

As I told you, after a certain birthday, the rocks just move on in, you don't have to climb under one, they climb on top of you! (Maybe that's the reason for hearing impairment; all those rocks?)

I suspect that my expression of befuddlement at my co-mourner's suggestion must have been priceless, though he was far to gracious to say anything. I really had no clue whatsoever. Just like that first time seeing a low-rider bouncing in Corpus Christi . . . .

My handy helper has used copper, maybe he has thoughts, but might have to re-train him based on what you said.

I assume I pick up with PEX where you leave off with copper?

As Ed would say to Johnny, you are correct Sir!!

And there are a variety of ways to do it.

The quickest is PTC (push to connect AKA Shark Bite), and probably the easiest and the most expensive.

The one you are the most familiar with is a sweat connection, using flux, solder and a flame (I like MAPP instead of Propane). Assuming you don't have the new copper press fittings @snic mentioned.

From there you have several choices of making connections. Unlike copper, they are all mechanical fasteners.

The most common is probably crimp. There is copper ring and stainless steel clamp.

The other is Expander ring. This relies on the inherent flexibility of PEX. It will stretch, but it wants to return to normal.

Each has it's benefits and weaknesses.

Personally, I went with the stainless steel crimp/cinch ring. It seemed to work better with the work I do. Remodeling/renovating and working in partially finished walls.

One thing I really like with PEX is that you can do home runs easier. By that I mean instead of doing trunk and branch like traditional copper, you can do a run of PEX to each fixture if you want. Or a modified home run where you have a run to a manifold where you split it off to each fixture at the bathroom, kitchen, etc.. (My plan)

 

[DoomsDave]

As Ed would say to Johnny, you are correct Sir!!

And there are a variety of ways to do it.

The quickest is PTC (push to connect AKA Shark Bite), and probably the easiest and the most expensive.

The one you are the most familiar with is a sweat connection, using flux, solder and a flame (I like MAPP instead of Propane). Assuming you don't have the new copper press fittings @snic mentioned.

From there you have several choices of making connections. Unlike copper, they are all mechanical fasteners.

The most common is probably crimp. There is copper ring and stainless steel clamp.

The other is Expander ring. This relies on the inherent flexibility of PEX. It will stretch, but it wants to return to normal.

Each has it's benefits and weaknesses.

Personally, I went with the stainless steel crimp/cinch ring. It seemed to work better with the work I do. Remodeling/renovating and working in partially finished walls.

One thing I really like with PEX is that you can do home runs easier. By that I mean instead of doing trunk and branch like traditional copper, you can do a run of PEX to each fixture if you want. Or a modified home run where you have a run to a manifold where you split it off to each fixture at the bathroom, kitchen, etc.. (My plan)

Well . . .

When you manage to be helpful, you really manage! :vs_cool:

Many of the walls have been opened up because of drywall damage from water intrusion, BUT there's going to be other places pipes will need to be threaded thru.

I'm beginning to be drawn to the Holy Church of Pex. Well, maybe THAT's an exaggeration . . .

 

[ktownskier]

In addition to my TBI, I also suffer from Mansplaining.

 

[HandyAndyInNC]

I would never use or suggest the use of anything but copper. It has been in use for centuries. Water does not taste good when supplied thru plastic. Copper will last almost forever. Purchase all your material from a plumbing supply house, not a box store. Use only type-K copper for the main supply into the house. Use only type-L for any other water supply. I don't trust the shark-bite connectors. They have not been out long enough to be proven reliable over time. Soldering is not difficult, it takes patience. In the end, you will have to connect the lines to copper connectors. That is all that are on the rough in devices.

 

[Mystriss]

I'm kinda a fan of copper personally, but I gotta admit a lot of that is that it "feels" like a better choice; more solid, more sturdy, more... idk, reliable.

Still... I watch home building shows, one in particular is all about modern construction techniques - stuff I really don't like (like 24" OC) and stuff I really like (too much to list) and PEX in particular is pretty attractive. I'm seriously considering putting it in my addition.

Its flexibility makes it super easy to run, which also means less soldered corners to leak.

Color coding is not only fun, it lessens the likelihood of mis-plumbed fixtures.

It seems to me it'd handle earthquake country better. The Natural Gas folks up here only use plastic because the solid pipes tend to break/crack/fail from frost heave and quakes.

No clicking and groaning as the copper heats up. (I can't tell you how many recordings had to be redone cause the heat came on and the house started moaning lol)

I think it'll insulate a little better, like it's got some give so the batt's won't be as squished = better insulation properties. (Not that we put water lines in exterior walls up here, but I intend to rockwool walls, floors, and ceilings for sound in the addition.)


That said, I have concerns too.

I worry about where it runs up through a downstairs wall - Knowing my luck I'll put a nail through it (I mounted a Blu-Ray player on my main waste PVC pipe...) So I'd wanna put a metal something around it for the 8 feet of run to the upstairs, then branch out from that central location.

I don't like push connects. My husband and I are actually in a fight over this one. I'm having him run water to the garage via pex and he doesn't want to "do it right" with the crimp tool heh

Finally, and this is probs a cold weather thing, I don't think the pex will radiate heat as well as the copper. (We have copper hot running the entire perimeter of the basement to quasi-heat the space.)

 

[ktownskier]

I value Andrew's opinion highly. He is very knowledgeable and reasonable. And I have learned a lot from listening to him.

With that being said....

I will disagree with him a bit on this point. I personally don't find any issues with using PEX. Probably because I don't consider it plastic for one thing. And the second being that I have seen houses where it was first used over 30 years ago, still using it with no issues.

One of the first Hometime shows to use it (A MN PBS home improvement show) was up for sale and I went and toured it a couple years ago when I was back in MN. It was a lot of fun to see the work that was done and to talk to the owners. They still had copper in half the house so it was interesting to learn about any differences. (The PEX side was a bit warmer for both cold and hot)

And there were no leaks in the PEX, while they had a couple in the copper.

Andrew is spot-on as to where to buy the stuff though. If you can. For somet things.

For convenience, I do to big blue and orange. You can't beat the prices on bulk fittings. And they are the same as you get from supply houses. The same for pieces of copper, rolls of tubing, etc.

But for specialty stuff, or other things. A supply house is the way to go.

Since I live in the mountains, it is harder for me to go to one. So I found supplyhouse.com. They have a great selection at great prices. I needed a couple of pumps for my heating system. They were about half other places. And I got them in three days.

Obviously, the main choice is yours. Just don't be afraid of trying something new.

 

[joecaption]

By far this chain of post has more misinformation then I've ever seen.
#1, Shark bit type fitting have been around for at least 40 years.
#2, I'd bet that at least 90% if not more new houses are now plumbed with PEX, it faster, needs less fittings and by far less expensive to install.
#3, There is no taste from the water from PEX.
#4, Copper last forever, sure if you have perfect water with no acid in it.
There's been dozen of post on this and any DIY site mentioning about pin holes in there copper pipes.
All the old Franklin Lloyd Wright homes have had to have there under floor copper pipes reran though the walls because they corroded.
Only people I know that still sware by copper pipes is old time plumbers that get paid by the hour.

 

[Mystriss]

On point 4, as far as I've ever heard, if your copper is corroding, then you should be running a filter, balancing the Ph, or running a sofner. I don't imagine you should be bathing in it, much less drinking it without.

That or your pipes are electrified (IIRC)

 

[Old Thomas]

Around home 10’ of copper is about $13 and 100’ of PEX is about $28. And PEX uses fewer fittings. PEX is less likely to be damaged by freezing.

 

[Mystriss]

Oh that's right, I totally forgot PEX's resistance to freeze burst - another thing I liked about it.

 

[ktownskier]

By far this chain of post has more misinformation then I've ever seen.
#1, Shark bit type fitting have been around for at least 40 years.
#2, I'd bet that at least 90% if not more new houses are now plumbed with PEX, it faster, needs less fittings and by far less expensive to install.
#3, There is no taste from the water from PEX.
#4, Copper last forever, sure if you have perfect water with no acid in it.
There's been dozen of post on this and any DIY site mentioning about pin holes in there copper pipes.
All the old Franklin Lloyd Wright homes have had to have there under floor copper pipes reran though the walls because they corroded.
Only people I know that still sware by copper pipes is old time plumbers that get paid by the hour.

@joecaption,
Exaggerate much? :biggrin2:

I have been very careful NOT to disseminate misinformation. And I believe that the information I have given has been as accurate as I can verify.

PTC connects have been around for a long time. Sharkbite connectors being the most well known brand. They were first introduced in 2004 (not 45 years ago) to the US Market. They were being made in Australia prior to that.

One of the first things I said about PEX was that is was fast.

Copper does last forever. No wait, that is Diamonds or Love or something like that.

Copper, like most everything, will have defects and other issues with it. And if installed incorrectly, (like forgetting dielectric unions, will develop pin-hole leaks. Among other things.

Regarding your comment finding a taste from PEX in water? I am not sure how that you can categorically make such a statement. There is no possible way to 100% verify that someone is incapable of discerning a difference between PEX and Copper. And I do swear at some of my copper fittings when I try and sweat them.


But to classify this thread as having "By far this chain of post has more misinformation then I've ever seen." is just plain horse hockey!!

 

[rjniles]

@joecaption,

Exaggerate much? :biggrin2:



I have been very careful NOT to disseminate misinformation. And I believe that the information I have given has been as accurate as I can verify.



PTC connects have been around for a long time. Sharkbite connectors being the most well known brand. They were first introduced in 2004 (not 45 years ago) to the US Market. They were being made in Australia prior to that.



One of the first things I said about PEX was that is was fast.



Copper does last forever. No wait, that is Diamonds or Love or something like that.



Copper, like most everything, will have defects and other issues with it. And if installed incorrectly, (like forgetting dielectric unions, will develop pin-hole leaks. Among other things.



Regarding your comment finding a taste from PEX in water? I am not sure how that you can categorically make such a statement. There is no possible way to 100% verify that someone is incapable of discerning a difference between PEX and Copper. And I do swear at some of my copper fittings when I try and sweat them.





But to classify this thread as having "By far this chain of post has more misinformation then I've ever seen." is just plain horse hockey!!

When the term "horse hockey" is used credit must be given to Col. Potter.(•‿•)

Sent from my RCT6A03W13E using Tapatalk

 

[Porsche986S]

No love for CPVC ? Been around a long time , easy to install just prime/glue/insert/twist . Reasonably priced and a long track record of success . Also easy to repair if needed .

 

[SPS-1]

On point 4, as far as I've ever heard, if your copper is corroding, then you should be running a filter, balancing the Ph, or running a sofner. I don't imagine you should be bathing in it, much less drinking it without.

That or your pipes are electrified (IIRC)

Actually, there are a number of possible causes for pinholes in copper. Rich Trethewey goes through them on a YouTube video for anybody interested.

 

[Yodaman]

Soldering is not difficult, it takes patience. In the end, you will have to connect the lines to copper connectors. That is all that are on the rough in devices.

Not sure what you are referring to here. I routinely plumb entire houses using PEX without a single soldered joint in the house.


The use of pex/npt threaded adapters solves most cases.


For example a typical PEX sink run will terminate in the wall with a drop ear 90 degree PEX to 1/2" FeNPT adapter. From there a short chrome nipple comes through the wall capped with your supply shut off. And of course a flex supply line to the faucet.

https://www.pexuniverse.com/pex-drop-ear-elbows


Looks like this, but I would use a chrome nipple to come through the wall

 

[Mystriss]

Related RE Corrosion issues besides water condition (aka failing WH, bad install, long term failure to use) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=nD5lMITzx_Y&feature=emb_logo