[mars0282]

Hi All, I have a tongue and groove wood ceiling with wood beams in my 4 season porch in addition to most of my upstairs. I want to paint it all white but am starting with the 4 season porch section.

I'm not sure what exactly was used on the wood, but it is a darker brown color and is very dull so doesn't appear to be a varnish. I was told by Home Depot that I should be able to paint over it with a latex paint. I bought Glidden Diamond (new Duo name) and painted one small section of a plank and whatever was below appeared to show through. I then tried using Bullseye 1 2 3 latex based primer. At this point I realized whatever was on the wood was actually coming off and mixing in with the primer. I was hoping the primer would seal it in even with this happening. Once the primer dried I put a second coat of primer on a board and the tan still showed through. Then, I tried painting over it with the Glidden latex paint and the brown color still showed through.

After this, I bought a can of Zinsser BIN Shellac based primer since I heard great things and tried it on one of the bare (untouched) planks. Again, the brown color mixed in. When I tried the paint on top the brown still leaked through.

Just for kicks, I washed a plank with TSP and A LOT of brown washed off. I then sanded a board and it seemed to lighten up. When washing the sanded section brown continued coming off. I am going to try to prime the washed and sanded/washed board to see if I have different results.

I'm wondering if anybody has experienced anything like this and has any possible solutions? I was really hoping to not have to sand and or wash any of the ceiling given how much time this will take.

Any advice or solutions anyone can provide would be much appreciated.

Thank you!1

 

[chrisn]

The Bin should dry an seal up whatever is happening, I would try Coverstain

 

[ToolSeeker]

The thing I can't figure is whatever is there coming off in the primer and your ability to scrub it off. I mean I don't know what would do this. Maybe a power wash then prime with the BIN.

 

[Gymschu]

A picture is worth a thousand words........

 

[mars0282]

I've attached some images as requested. Please let me know your thoughts!

Thank you!

 

[Gymschu]

Wow, I can honestly say I've never seen bleed through like that when B-I-N Shellac based primer was used........never. It is simply the best "go-to" product for cases like yours.

Any latex primer (Bullseye in your case) will simply act as a wick for any tannins/oils in the wood and of course they will show up in the primer and any topcoats.

B-I-N or Coverstain (oil-based) are the widely accepted solutions here........I'm stumped. Anyone else?

 

[mars0282]

The only thing I can think is the original wood had some sort of sealant on it and they applied a stain of some sort on top of that so the stain essentially just sat on top of the surface and didn't absorb. Now that I'm painting/staining, it is just rewetting whatever is on the wood and mixing it in with the primer. However, if that was the case, I would have expected the first coat of the 1-2-3 to mix with it, but once the second coat was applied I would have expected it to actually seal the stain in.

In addition to finding a solution, I also am concerned about the long term look. By this I mean, in the short term I may eventually find something that appears to seal in the brown and not leak through the paint color, but could this crack or chip in the long term if it is not adhering well to the wood?

I may need to post on a "how to burn your house down and make it look like an accident" forum.

 

[mathmonger]

You can't paint brown grime. I see a lot of ceiling washing in your future.

 

[mars0282]

If that's the case, what would be best to use for cleaning? I used TSP and scrubbed by hand and that didn't seem to take it off very well. I do have a battery powered scrubber that I will be trying after it finishes charging. It's not very powerful, basically just spins in a slow circle, but that's better than doing it by hand. Since this is a ceiling, cleaning with water is going to be very difficult and messy especially if it's a very watery cleaner.

 

[mathmonger]

According to the brilliant Nestor Kelebay, TSP was long favored by painters because of the way it etched oil based paints. It is only a mediocre cleaner. Personally, I have never been overly impressed with TSP, so I think maybe that is the case.

What would be best in your particular situation? Who knows? I'd see what a rag soaked in mineral spirits does. You'd have to take precautions with the fumes, but it might be the easiest way to go without making a big mess. It's difficult to rinse, so you want something that doesn't leave any residue. Simple Green Surface Prep or Dirtex might also work.

 

[chrisn]

I can see the stain in the Bin pic, but is it not locked in the paint film?

 

[mars0282]

I can see the stain in the Bin pic, but is it not locked in the paint film?

Sorry, I don't think I understand your question. Are you thinking the stain is "locked" in the bin primer as it in won't spread but still bleeds through the paint? If that's what you're suggesting I assume that would lead to trying two coats of BIN (1st to lock in stain, second to fully seal over the stain) followed by paint?

 

[PRP]

Try multiple coats of BIN on a cleaned area. Wait an hour between each. As has been said BIN is tops for stains, so this is odd. Don't sand the BIN either.
You're using the original shellac BIN? There is a synthetic version that is not quite the same in performance.

 

[Mml665]

Try a few coats of BIN, the shellac based sealer works really well, and dries rather quickly.

 

[chrisn]

Sorry, I don't think I understand your question. Are you thinking the stain is "locked" in the bin primer as it in won't spread but still bleeds through the paint? If that's what you're suggesting I assume that would lead to trying two coats of BIN (1st to lock in stain, second to fully seal over the stain) followed by paint?

yes, although I have never has anything bleed through one coat

 

[ToolSeeker]

If the bleed thru is locked in the BIN then more coats will not do anything. Take a spot and paint it. Then see if the bleed continues or if it's been stopped. As for cover stain I'm not sure how that would work. Since BIN is a sealer and has already been used the oil based Cover Stain would not be able to penetrate the wood so the oil would sit on top. Has anyone used oil over the BIN.

And as stated TSP is a poor cleaner and can in fact cause problems. After use must be rinsed, rinsed again, and to be sure rinsed again.

 

[ric knows paint]

I've attached some images as requested. Please let me know your thoughts!

Thank you!

Mars...

What happens when you rub your hand across the surface? ...or a dry rag across the surface? Does that affect the brown at all? Is there any color rub-off on your hand, or on the rag? Does the brown "polish-up" when ragging it?

There are a couple of things I'd recommend trying...(1) no one resin type can seal all types of bleeding "stains". Example: water stains cannot be sealed with water borne resins (not easily, at least), oil stains cannot be sealed with oil based products or aliphatic petro chem solvents (not easily, at least), and waxes...waxes present a whole different type of "not easily, at least" - 'cause it seems everything solvent (alcohols and petro solvents) dissolves wax...which causes it to "bleed". If BIN, nor 123 seals it...I'd be tempted to try Cover Stain (or other oil based P/S/SK), but I don't think I'd hold my breath - but that leads me to #(2) Rather than brushing, or rolling, try spraying BIN, or Cover Stain, or even 123, and check your results. If this is a loosely bound brown pigment, or dye, brushing and rolling can simply redeposit such material onto, and within, the surface being applied. Your brush, roller and tray may all become contaminated with whatever substance is causing the bleed - and the stainkiller won't be able to "lock" it down and prevent "bleeding"...Spraying will not move the substance around, and hopefully then, the stain killer's resin will be able to bind the whatever tightly to the surface, and prevent, or minimize, continued bleed. Keep in mind, if this works (and it should), it still has to be the appropriate resin type to block bleed through, so that still has to be determined... AND, if it is wax - solvent cleaning may be your best bet for successful painting.

Good luck.

 

[mathmonger]

I thought about spraying as well, but I was concerned about even having good adhesion to a surface that is not sound.

 

[ric knows paint]

I thought about spraying as well, but I was concerned about even having good adhesion to a surface that is not sound.

Well, you're not wrong in your thinking, MM - but in many cases, both BIN & Cover Stain (not so much 123) would be able to bind a loose, fine chalk or dried powdery material without an adverse affect...I think it'd be worth it for Mars to at least try a small section and check results.

 

[mars0282]

Thanks for all of the comments. I was thinking something similar to spraying. I did have an airless paint sprayer at one time but no longer do. I do however have a wagner power painter which I could try (HVLP). Since the BIN is so thin, I'm thinking it will spray pretty well out of that. I've sprayed latex enough times and it works well if it's thinned so this stuff shouldn't be an issue.

I finally had some time to try 2 coats of BIN on one board and believe that did the trick. However, I put the BIN on somewhat thick with a 4" brush and tried to brush as minimally as possible in the first coat - dipping in BIN more frequently to not paint the brush dry and spread more stain. After that, there was no bleed through and the second coat completely covered everything.

This had me thinking the less the surface is disturbed, the better the results will be so spraying is probably the best solution. One person questioned the adherence which is going to be my biggest concern. Is there anything I can do to test how well it's adhered? I did scratch over it hard with my nail and nothing really happened. If the BIN isn't adhered well will it lead to a "crackled" surface in the future?

Thanks again for all the responses, I do appreciate it!