[Orangeman6]

Hey All,

I have been googling and searching this forum but was hoping for some help with running an outdoor circuit. I am located in northern California. I am not pulling a permit but do want it to be done correctly.

I am adding a water feature to a sitting wall I built and it will require a small pump. I have future plans for an outdoor kitchen area that will have a refrigerator and a couple of led lights. To get to where the water feature will be, I will be pulling wire past the location of the future kitchen, so I want to stub up power at that spot to have when I do attack the kitchen project. To get power, I plan on tapping into an outdoor gfci on the back of the house. That outlet is on a 15 amp circuit. Its about 40' from the current outet to the water feature and about 25' from the outlet to the outdoor kitchen area.


I am still trying to figure out the most efficient way to run the cable and which conduit or cable to use. There is no room to get a trencher in to where I need the line and the dirt is HARD and rocky. Direct burial seems to be the easiest but I dont like the idea of the cable not being in some sort of conduit for protection purposes. Maybe I am overthinking it, but Im worried about accidentally hitting it later. Also, there seems to be conflicting information on the depth requirements of the different options.

Questions:

-Is 12" depth all that is required since it is 120v, gfci protected, and less than 20 amps? If so, can I put the cable inside conduit too, just so its not quite as easy to put a shovel through the wire? Or if I use conduit, should I just be using thhn or thwn?

-Rigid metal conduit can be as shallow as 6"? Are there compression type fittings for this conduit, or does it all have to be threaded? Should I just be using pvc? Since its a pretty short run I dont mind spending a bit more to do it better.

-Im assuming I would just use some sort of outdoor junction box to stub up power for the future kitchen and at the terminal location where the water feature pump will be. If I go direct burial, I will use conduit wherever the line cable comes out of the ground.

Any help or advice is appreciated. Im headed to HD to stand in front of the electrical fittings trying to see see what fits together. :laughing:

 

[anyacolo]

run it in PVC pipe,


an existing 15A circuit will not be anywher close to enough power for a future kitchen, so not sure what your thinking there

 

[Orangeman6]

Copy on the pvc, thanks.

 

[Orangeman6]

To answer your question of what i was thinking, I maybe overstating a bit calling it an outdoor kitchen. It's not anything I am going to build right away, but figured I would stub up some power for it since I am running wire right by it to get to the water feature. It will have a refrigerator, a couple of led lights, possibly an ice maker, and a couple of outlets.

The circuit I was wanting to tap into currently is supplying the can lights in the kitchen and a small fixture in the nook. All bulbs have been changed to led's. If I looked it up correctly, I'm not even drawing 2 amps from that circuit with the change to the led's. I am probalby off base but I just totaled up the amp draw of the what is currently on that circuit and added the stuff I want to install in the outdoor barbecue area.

current lights in kitchen and nook 2 amps
water feature pump 1.5 amps
compact refrigerator 1.5 amps
ice maker 2 amps
led lights .5 amp

That put me at 7.5 amps. I wasnt sure but figured I'd be ok with a couple of outlets added to that. Maybe that doesnt leave enough for whatever might get plugged in to the outlets, or maybe I am just completely off base all around?

If I need to add a dedicated circuit, I'd appreciate some input on that. The house is 2 stories on a raised foundation. The sub panel is in the laundry room on the first floor. There are no empty spots for another breaker. I assume I would have to get a little bit bigger sub panel, have everything changed out, then get under the house and get the new circuit tied into it?

Thnanks again for the help.

 

[RAL238]

That put me at 7.5 amps. I wasnt sure but figured I'd be ok with a couple of outlets added to that. Maybe that doesnt leave enough for whatever might get plugged in to the outlets, or maybe I am just completely off base all around?

If I need to add a dedicated circuit, I'd appreciate some input on that. The house is 2 stories on a raised foundation. The sub panel is in the laundry room on the first floor. There are no empty spots for another breaker. I assume I would have to get a little bit bigger sub panel, have everything changed out, then get under the house and get the new circuit tied into it?

Thnanks again for the help.

I think you are underestimating how much power a couple of additional appliances plugged into those outdoor outlets might require. A good quality blender can draw 9 - 12 amps all by itself. So you'd be under powered right there.



I'd want to have at least one if not two 20A circuits for that kitchen.

 

[Orangeman6]

I think you are underestimating how much power a couple of additional appliances plugged into those outdoor outlets might require. A good quality blender can draw 9 - 12 amps all by itself. So you'd be under powered right there.



I'd want to have at least one if not two 20A circuits for that kitchen.

Got it.

So now to figure out how to get it. I have an unfinished space above the garage where the main panel is, but I don’t know if I have an easy way to route it from there. I’ll get a look at it tomorrow. As I mentioned above, I can get to the space below the sub panel but there’s no space left in it for additional breakers.


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[HandyAndyInNC]

I would never mix lighting and power on the same circuit. Especially when some of the devices are outside. That is just asking for issues and problems. Any circuit outside I would put it on its own circuit. I would have pulled two, maybe 3 separate circuits when I was building "the wall". That way all the most difficult and all underground work would have done first, and it would have all been buried at this time. You may pull multiple circuits in the same conduit. Use the device box as the junction. Never use a junction box outside. Just use the device box. It will be above ground and have easy access.

Visit an Electrical Supply house, not a box store. They have crap. Buy quality and buy it only once.

Any circuit that is outside I would bury deeper than the minimal requirement. You would be surprised at how many service entrance conduits and cables I have replaced because someone hit it while digging, and it was not buried deep enough. But it met the minimal requirement. I buried mine for this house as far down as the backhoe would reach. That is about 8 feet. And I still laid in a spare conduit in another ditch. I go way above the minimal requirements. Save so much time and trouble in the long run. You can still get a small trackhoe in there. They are sized to fit thru a 36" household door. I would have thought about running the conduit in the wall while designing that. Especially if it were concrete block. Wood would have been even more simple. How about water? What have you laid to supply water to this small "kitchen"?

 

[Old Thomas]

I would put in conduit and wire for your current need and also put in an extra conduit or two for future need. When and if the time comes, you can add wires to the extra conduits.

Table 300.5 of the 2017 NEC says that with rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit you can bury it:
6" deep under 2" of concrete or
4" deep under 4" of concrete.

With nonmetallic raceways listed for direct burial:
12" deep under 2" of concrete or
4" deep under 4" of concrete.

Residential circuits 120V or less with GFCI protection and limited to 20 amps:
6" deep under 2" of concrete or
6" direct burial or 4" in a raceway under 4" of concrete.

There are lots of options. It is not hard to dig a narrow trench, mix up some bags of concrete, and put it on top of your underground work.

 

[rjniles]

A direct burial of a 20 amp GFCI protected circuit needs 12" depth. Deeper is better.


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[Orangeman6]

The water feature is going into the break in the center of the wall. When I built the wall there was no plan for a water feature. The built in barbecue area is going to be added onto the wall where it ends on the right. I’ll tie into that end of the existing wall. I haven’t decided yet if I’m doing it in block, or frame it, but either way, I’ll obviously be able to run whatever I need in both places.

I have water close, so that’s not an issue. What I need to figure out is how best to get a new source of power instead of the exterior outlet I was going to tap into.


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[Photobug]

I agree the more power the better, meaning two 20 amp circuits would be best. However if you have no way to easily get from the main panel to the outside wall to run two circuits to the area you want to place your kitchen, there might be easier options.

Examine the circuit you are looking to tap off of? Are you sure it is only 15 amps, might it be 20 amps? What else is on that circuit competing for the power? You could still run a simple kitchen without 2 20a circuits but might have to leave the ice maker out of the equation.

One last option is to run the wires you need for 2-20a circuits now, tap off the 15a circuit for the water feature then pay an electrician to get the wire from the main panel to the box when the kitchen is built.

 

[Orangeman6]

I agree the more power the better, meaning two 20 amp circuits would be best. However if you have no way to easily get from the main panel to the outside wall to run two circuits to the area you want to place your kitchen, there might be easier options.



Examine the circuit you are looking to tap off of? Are you sure it is only 15 amps, might it be 20 amps? What else is on that circuit competing for the power? You could still run a simple kitchen without 2 20a circuits but might have to leave the ice maker out of the equation.



One last option is to run the wires you need for 2-20a circuits now, tap off the 15a circuit for the water feature then pay an electrician to get the wire from the main panel to the box when the kitchen is built.

Thanks, that’s what I was leaning towards. I’ll finish the trench and run the wires, plus an extra run of conduit.

I don’t mind the crawling, drilling, pulling, etc but I need some help figuring out the easiest way to get the power and with dealing with the panel.

Yes, the circuit I wanted to tap is definitely 15 amps. It supplies the cans in the kitchen and a fixture in the nook, plus that exterior outlet I was going to tap, which is right outside the nook. Every bulb is now led, that’s where I came up with that circuit currently drawing no more than 2 amps.

If the sub panel ends up being my easiest access, do I have any options other than changing it out since there are no open spots left for additional breakers?


Thanks for the help.


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[seharper]

-Rigid metal conduit can be as shallow as 6"? Are there compression type fittings for this conduit, or does it all have to be threaded? Should I just be using pvc? Since its a pretty short run I dont mind spending a bit more to do it better.

You need 6" of cover. All those depths are not depths, they are cover over top of the pipe.

But absolutely. Rigid is *made for this*. The run is short so you won't go bankrupt, the soil is miserable to dig in, and the rocks are a direct threat to buried cable (well, you're supposed to surround the buried cable with sand to prevent that from happening), and even PVC won't survive a rock attack.

If you want to trench for 6" of cover and then use PVC instead of Rigid, well, I don't want to hear about it, that ain't what Code says.

The threading on Rigid isn't bad. The pipes come pre-threaded, you only need to really deal with threading once or twice at the end of runs once you have your lengths figured out, and have the hardware store cut threads on it. But pre-plan that. I'd talk to a) local family-owned lumber yards, b) local family-owned hardware stores often branded as ACE or HWI, and c) local electrical supply houses. See how they feel about threading pipe you bought somewhere else, and while you're talking to them, ask what *their* price is on pipe. You'll find that if you always believed HD was the cheapest in town, that a bit of a joke has been played on you

-Im assuming I would just use some sort of outdoor junction box to stub up power for the future kitchen and at the terminal location where the water feature pump will be. If I go direct burial, I will use conduit wherever the line cable comes out of the ground.

Should you make that intermediate stop, or should you have totally separate conduit home-runs? Given Rigid's pricing, I would price it both ways honestly.
The smallest pipe you would use is 1/2" and that will accommodate all the circuits you're allowed (3-4), noting that Rigid *is* the ground "wire".

I'd want to have at least one if not two 20A circuits for that kitchen.

I would never mix lighting and power on the same circuit. Especially when some of the devices are outside. That is just asking for issues and problems. Any circuit outside I would put it on its own circuit. I would have pulled two, maybe 3 separate circuits when I was building "the wall".

But you gotta watch that. When supplying to an outbuilding, you hit the Highlander Rule: there can be only one circuit of any given voltage and usage. For instance

- One 120V plain circuit
- Another 120V plain circuit, if it is switched at the house for some reason e.g. lighting; this is allowed because of a specialized usage.
- One 240V plain circuit
- One 120/240V appliance circuit
- One Multi-Wire Branch Circuit
- Another 240V plain circuit for a well-head since it is switched by a pressure switch in the house
- Another 240V circuit pulled out of a special panel off the meter, to run a fire pump.

You can't just throw two 120V general-service lines to an outbuilding. Unless you put one on a switch for some inscrutable reason like "I'm always leaving the shop lights on, so I just put Shop Circuit B on a switch at the house"... OK.

Visit an Electrical Supply house, not a box store. They have crap. Buy quality and buy it only once.

Yup. And their advice is actually *good*, And here's the thing about their prices. If you put them head-to-head on a super-commodity item that everyone uses for everything, like 250' of #14 Romex, yeah, Home Depot will win because they loss-leader the stuff they think you'll check. But take a (for me, common) 4-11/16" square junction box. HD=$6-7... electrical supply=$2-3 are you kidding me?

I started checking other stuff, and man, those big-data analysts in Chicago have it figured out... Home Depot is a mild to massive ripoff on anything out of the ordinary.

And I still laid in a spare conduit in another ditch. How about water? What have you laid to supply water to this small "kitchen"?

And sewer. Yeah OP if you have any thought toward bringing any telecomm to either site, throw a 1/2" PVC conduit in the 7" trench for the Rigid. 6" cover is fine for telecomm (yes I know HandyAndy just got done warning "Go DEEEEP" but conduit *is* repairable so I'm not going to lose any sleep over cutting a few #12 wires).

 

[Orangeman6]

I would put in conduit and wire for your current need and also put in an extra conduit or two for future need. When and if the time comes, you can add wires to the extra conduits.

Table 300.5 of the 2017 NEC says that with rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit you can bury it:
6" deep under 2" of concrete or
4" deep under 4" of concrete.

With nonmetallic raceways listed for direct burial:
12" deep under 2" of concrete or
4" deep under 4" of concrete.

Residential circuits 120V or less with GFCI protection and limited to 20 amps:
6" deep under 2" of concrete or
6" direct burial or 4" in a raceway under 4" of concrete.

There are lots of options. It is not hard to dig a narrow trench, mix up some bags of concrete, and put it on top of your underground work.

Thanks for the heads up on the concrete. I like that idea and it’ll be easy to do.


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[Photobug]

If the sub panel ends up being my easiest access, do I have any options other than changing it out since there are no open spots left for additional breakers?


Thanks for the help.


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I just added a subpanel. If you have some runs that are underburdened, you can add two circuits to one circuit breaker. You can also (depending on the box) add a double circuit to one spot with two CBs in one.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...Pole-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QO2020C/100075651

 

[Orangeman6]

Seharper, thanks for taking the time to write all of that up. I'll look into the rigid conduit. There's not a big need to cheap out when the runs I'm talking about are fairly short. Compression fitting are an option too, right?



Your example of having two separate circuits, that have the same function, ran to one outbuilding was surprising. Is there a practical reason this is not allowed? I have always understood fixtures on one circuit, and outlets on another, in a house but figured it was just a capacity thing.



The water feature pump, refrigerator and ice maker (if I even put one in) all use plugs, as opposed to being hardwired, so everything will be outlets besides whatever lighting i put in. Most everything is 1-2 amps, besides the ice maker, which could be up to 3 depending on size. As mentioned earlier by someone, the surface outlets could end up with the most draw. It seems I should plan for the surface outlets on one circuit and the appliances on the other? The led lights maybe on the appliance circuit too?



Really, for now, I just need to know how to run the wire. The water feature pump draws so little, I certainly dont want to put it on its own circuit. That was why I wanted to put a junction box at the area of the future kitchen on my way to the pump. I figured I'd spool up as much extra wire in a waterproof box so I had the room to get it into the kitchen area when I got to that. I still want to do that and I'll add the additional conduit and line for an additional circuit in the kitchen.



And I'm still curious about the sub panel. Since it is full, is my only option for using it to change it out to a larger one? The main panel has room for more circuits but I need to get a look at access. It might be pretty difficult.



And, yes, HD sucks. I started roofing when i was 13 years old and have worked in other trades (just never electrical, obviously). I,I’ve always avoid that place when I can.

 

[Orangeman6]

I just added a subpanel. If you have some runs that are underburdened, you can add two circuits to one circuit breaker. You can also (depending on the box) add a double circuit to one spot with two CBs in one.



https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...Pole-Tandem-Circuit-Breaker-QO2020C/100075651

Thanks for the link. It looks like mine may have doubled up breakers already?
Here’s a pic of the sub panel.



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